Acoustic pickup blend system for Guild D35

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Hello,

Been mostly an electric player for the past few years, but recently took up the acoustic again. It's proven a fantastic tool to write new stuff on and I'm contemplating integrating it on my live sets with the band. I'll be receiving a 1979 D35 next week and have been doing extensive research on acoustic pickup systems. Because I have an electric setup comprised of 2 electrical guitars, and a large pedalboard going into a 65 Deluxe Reverb Reissue, I've been looking at acoustic setups that'll fit an electric rig. I know it's not the cannon, but I've seen it done with good results.

So far, the best ones I've found combine a sound hole mounted passive magnetic pickup with an under the bridge transducer (like the K&K Pure Mini). My only experience with acoustic pickups was with a cheap Artec magnetic humbucker and it was really nothing to write home about.

This stereo setup https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcRvo8JrNTU by Ryley Walker is - to my ears - the best sounding system. I'm thinking of trying something along these lines, but mono (a bit like John Butler does with his acoustic rig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbU_EoMpnfc&t=464s).

But I do have lots of questions:

1) The sunrise magnetic pickup (passive) is hard to find in europe. Found a shop in the UK but it's on the pricey side. Has anyone had experience with this unit?

2) I would need to blend both signals coming from the guitar into 1 mono signal. The flow I was thinking would be:

a) Magnetic -> Pedalboard -> blender (input A) -> Amp (mono)
b) Transducer -> blender (input B) -> Amp (mono)

Thinking about using the K&K Dual Channel Pro Preamp as a blender https://www.thomann.de/pt/kk_dual_channel_pro_preamp.htm But it seems the EQ afects the mono output (no independent EQ for each input signal). Has anyone had experience with this unit? The Radial Tonebone Pre looks more rugged and has a great featureset but is way above what I'm comfortable paying for this project.

Anyone here using this type of layout?

Thanks in advance.
Tiago
 
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Nuuska

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Hello from Finland

I have used similar system - DIY - for some 35 years. My pickups are from those "good old days" but still serve well - I can imagine vast improvement with todays pickups - but for at least four guitars I can never afford it.

Anyway - in each guitar I have passive springmounted humbucker in soundhole and pietzo under saddle. They are wired with stereo jack - humbucker being tip and pietzo is ring - in case i have to connect into "anything".

With all pietzo pickups it is VERY IMPORTANT that receiving preamp has high impedance - that K&K seems ok. The humbucker gives you body and pietzo adds tone - then you eq it.

All depends greatly of the sound you are after - I was hunting Leo Kottke´s recorded sound - got close, but since he and I play with quite different technique, the final essence was never there. He showed me the difference once - I have allways been too lazy to work years to change anything, so I still play with my old fingertechnique.

Once you have the electric part together, you might experiment with different strings - you might end with fantastic sounding electric system at cost of not so fantastic acoustic system.

If that is not acceptable, then keep D35 purely acoustic and get another guitar for band use.

Cheers.
 

Christopher Cozad

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Hello, Tiago.

I have a Sunrise S-2 pickup, and have used it in a dual-source pickup combination on more than one acoustic guitar. By itself, all alone, I find it pretty "electric" sounding, regardless of the preamp used. However, when blended with another pickup (as you are planning on doing), it makes a great partner in a dual-source system.

It is a heavy pickup (11 oz), as are most other magnetic soundhole pickups (such as the LR Baggs M-1 or M-80). I have combined a Sunrise with soundboard transducers, under saddle transducers, and microphones (at one time or another - not all at once). All the combinations I have tried over the years worked fine, each variation adding it’s own flavor to the overall sound.

I have not used the Radial Tonebone PZ-Pre, though I think I have used nearly every other preamp ever made. In my opinion, when adding a pickup to an acoustic guitar, piezo transducer or magnetic, a preamp is a necessity. My goal was always to hide the sound of the pickup, or at least try to mask it as much as possible. Adding that extra headroom (as Nuuska mentioned) and being able to shape the tone via an EQ is a must. Whether it be the preamp built into your guitar amp, an “onboard” preamp mounted in the guitar, or an “outboard” stompbox, that extra investment pays dividends.

Michael Hedges combined a Sunrise (S-1, back then I think) with a Frap transducer (similar to your K&K Pure Mini) as well as a Sunrise with an LR Baggs (ribbon) transducer. If you are unfamiliar with his sound, search for a recording of any of his “live” performances.

I used the same Ernie Ball stereo volume pedal that Riley uses for years with my dual-source setups. It is a great pedal.
 
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Thank you so much guys. Really appreciate the detailed information.

I have found a used Baggs Para DI selling (locally) for 120€. Considering getting that and a magnetic pickup first (probably baggs m1 or dimarzio black angel to keep costs down) and eventually adding a second source latter on.
 

MLBob

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Tiagop,

Sending you a link to a video posted by a friend of mine, Charlie Hines. It addresses exactly what you are talking about. This is the system I use in my Guild Studio 24. Matter of fact, Charlie has a program he uses to set the pots in the K&K box and he Eq'd the pickups in my guitar for me.

https://youtu.be/GlR2W4BNqTY

Bob
 

gilded

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Good info, gents.

These are almost random thoughts, but here goes:

The initial questions for me are, do you play out with your own sound engineer, or are you at the mercy of the venue's sound guys? How big are your gigs? How loud do you play with electrics? Are your acoustic guitars supposed to keep up, volume-wise, with your electric sound?

Sunrise pickups are heavy and they are hum buckers. The weight of the pickup actually dampens the tops a lot, so that helps with feed back. The weight doesn't hurt a dreadnaught too much, but it can kill the sound of a small, parlor-sized guitar. Fishman makes some pickups that function like a Sunrise, but weigh a lot less.

I like Sunrise pickups, but the singer/song-writer artists I see using equipment like that have sound engineers. If you have a guy that's gonna handle the EQ for you, you'll be in a lot better shape than trying to make all that stuff work on the fly. In my world, I wanted the inside mic to work on the Intro of the Song, the Lead, or as James Taylor would say it, the 'Middle 8 bars, when everybody else in the band is quiet'. Other than that, I'd be using the Sunrise.

You're gonna need sophisticated EQ and the settings will change from place to place. I'd get a sound-hole cover, cut-out the area where the Sunrise sit's in the sound hole. It'll help with feedback (it looks like John Butler is doing that, but I could be wrong).

Oh, one more thing. It is easy to step on a Baggs Paracoustic DI and break the cheap Pac Rim pots. If it's gonna be on the floor, use something like a Baggs Venue. Almost identical sound quality, but a little more versatile. Crummy tuner (at least on my early one) but it's quick and the boost setting is helpful.

Much luck!
 

adorshki

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HI Tiagop welcome aboard!
Guild themselves offered a Fishman ProBlend system which utilized a soundhole condenser mic and a UST, and the ability to control the mix of signals, and blended 'em down to a mono output as you mentioned:
qlkv5qdoehyneg6mxjqo.jpg

The notch filter and phase switch offered versatility in dealing with varying acoustic environments.
The downside may be that it mounts into the upper bout side of the guitar, so installation may be a bit costly, if you even want to cut into the side.
 
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HI Tiagop welcome aboard!
Guild themselves offered a Fishman ProBlend system which utilized a soundhole condenser mic and a UST, and the ability to control the mix of signals, and blended 'em down to a mono output as you mentioned:
qlkv5qdoehyneg6mxjqo.jpg

The notch filter and phase switch offered versatility in dealing with varying acoustic environments.
The downside may be that it mounts into the upper bout side of the guitar, so installation may be a bit costly, if you even want to cut into the side.
Would love to have one of these to install in a Guild that I have, where can I find one?
 

adorshki

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Would love to have one of these to install in a Guild that I have, where can I find one?
I see 'still available every time I check (which also says a lot about their continuing viability as a UST/mic system), "Fishman Pro-blend" system:
https://www.fishman.com/portfolio/prefix-pro-blend-onboard-preamp-wide-pro-mat-p51/

And if you want the Guild logo, I see 'em on Ebay/Reverb/etc. frequently as well. Just be sure to look for the "Prefix Blend" ("Blender") system from about '98 on, as earlier versions were UST only. The Blenders also have a "Blend" slider". ;)
 

Br1ck

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Depending on loudness, a mag may well be the way to go. Isn't it the M 80 that has a mic attached? Sunrise has been a favorite for decades now, but expensive. A very popular system for ten years now is the Anthem, not cheap for the more adjustable unit. Not as feedback resistant though. Do sources in the UK have the favorable return policies we in the US enjoy? Maybe buy and try, then if it works have it installed more permanently. A mag pickup maybe won't need the PARA DI.
 
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