Sgt. Pepper PBS special this Saturday

adorshki said:

Actually meant the soundtrack album, the song itself first appeared on Revolver and yeah I'm kind of sick of it now myself.
But the soundtrack album rock has that other material that makes it worth it.

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I came onto the Beatles late, my fave album being Abbey Road.

adorshki said:

Now that's an interesting take.
I always got that it started with Epstein's death in '67, for the first time nobody was wakin' 'em, up tellin' 'em what the day's schedule was anymore.
I got that the "fragmenting" started around the time of the "White Album" sessions, but that's just my memory of things and sources.
And truthfully I've read little of Paul's take on things from the times.
What I DO remember is that when the "White Album" came out there were no signs of cracks in the foundation, they put out Yellow Submarine and Abbey Road before we knew it was already all too late.
In fairness to Paul the Let It Be Wiki Page has this to say about the situation in early 1969 during the recording sessions for what became Let it Be:
"McCartney tried to organise and encourage his bandmates, but his attempts to hold the band together and rally spirits were seen by the others as controlling and patronising."
I don't recall the cracks becoming evident until the release of McCartney and the announcement of the breakup in April '70.

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Nothing was evident to the public, but they were breaking up pretty much around the time you guys mention - I'd say more Magical Mystery Tour is when Paul took over - the other three had very little to do with that. They were still pretty much together during Pepper, although John was eating LSD for breakfast at that point. Once John met Yoko in '68, and George dedicated himself to the sitar, Indian culture, spirituality, etc, they were both no longer emotionally attached to the Beatles. Read anything about the White Album sessions, and you find they were basically each doing their own thing, using the rest of the band (if at all) as side men. Those are the sessions Ringo walked out on. In fact, engineer Geoff Emerick also quit during the White Album - he couldn't take the stressful environment. One brilliant exception - "Yer Blues", recorded live in what basically was a closet!

Given the eye of the hurricane the 4 of them lived in during Beatlemania, I'm not surprised they got tired of each other. And, also, let's face it, they grew up.

walrus

walrus said:

...they were both no longer emotionally attached to the Beatles. Read anything about the White Album sessions, and you find they were basically each doing their own thing, using the rest of the band (if at all) as side men...And, also, let's face it, they grew up.

walrus

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yeah I can imagine this. As well, they could not have liked the public's adoration after a while. like they might not have seen themselves as anything that special.

I felt the Pepper special was mediocre, PBS's typical romanticising and intellectuallising of a story, much like anything Ken Burns or Doris Kearny Goodwin presents on the network. I would have rather seen the film "let it be" to see real insight into how they crafted their pieces.

I've been privy to internal PBS affairs and events. They spend lavishly on themselves and I find them somewhat hypocritical with their constant pandering. That being said, I do feel they produce many high quality shows and specials, however given their obvious bias i personally couldn't look myself in the mirror if I gave them a penny. But I digress, the Pepper special was what I expected, and Abbey Road and Meet the Beatles are my faves.

When you think of some of the mediocre or crummy songs on the White album like "Why don't we do it in the road" and "Number 9" it makes sense George would get frustrated. I remember hearing a song played on the radio show "Breakfast with the Beatles" and they played an incredible song with a lot of great guitar licks. They then said it was a song by George that didn't make it onto The White Album. I thought what a shame.
Not sure if it was ever released.
M

I thought the show was pretty cool. I enjoyed how they covered either the technical studio techniques like changing the pitch of Lennons voice to match the key of two different songs so they could be blended together.

Or the creative process which naturally evolved and can now be explained by music theory, like the use of modes or divergent chords or modification of Little Richards "trips".

How about the creative inventions where on "A day in the life" the orchestra played a random assenting scale that ended in E that was snipped randomly together.

And how about the little trivia about how the name came about where a roadie mumbled salt-n-pepper and Lennon thought he said Sgt. Pepper.

I also was influenced by Sgt Pepper to appreciate other orchestra and band instruments where I would never have appreciate them on my own.

Wish it was a series...

M

matsickma said:

When you think of some of the mediocre or crummy songs on the White album like "Why don't we do it in the road" and "Number 9" it makes sense George would get frustrated. I remember hearing a song played on the radio show "Breakfast with the Beatles" and they played an incredible song with a lot of great guitar licks. They then said it was a song by George that didn't make it onto The White Album. I thought what a shame.
Not sure if it was ever released.
M

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It was probably "Not Guilty" - famous for exactly what you said - not being released on the White Album. The song's lyrics are a commentary on his dissatisfaction with the Beatles. First verse:

"Not guilty
For getting in your way
While you're trying to steal the day
Not guilty
And I'm not here for the rest
I'm not trying to steal your vest."

Here's the Beatles demo version that you may have heard on the radio:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuhAZIKPejo

And in 1979, Harrison released his own version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6cN9ZvcobU

walrus

Westerly Wood said:

I came onto the Beatles late, my fave album being Abbey Road.

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In a sense, I wasn't late, but the only Beatles I bought on vinyl was Abbey Road. Everything else remained contentedly in the background for me. Decades later, if I were building a personal recorded music collection I would probably add a couple others.

Antney said:

I felt the Pepper special was mediocre, PBS's typical romanticising and intellectuallising of a story, much like anything Ken Burns or Doris Kearny Goodwin presents on the network. I would have rather seen the film "let it be" to see real insight into how they crafted their pieces.

I've been privy to internal PBS affairs and events. They spend lavishly on themselves and I find them somewhat hypocritical with their constant pandering. That being said, I do feel they produce many high quality shows and specials, however given their obvious bias i personally couldn't look myself in the mirror if I gave them a penny. But I digress, the Pepper special was what I expected, and Abbey Road and Meet the Beatles are my faves.

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Point noted on the tendency of non profits to recycle income internally.

Wasn't Sgt. Pepper originally produced by the BBC? I'm thinking that if I wanted to pay the producers of video that I watch and not the broadcasters then I would be writing checks to the BBC and not PBS. Perhaps PBS commissioned it or collaborated on it but AFAIK all they did was broadcast it in the USA.

I hope we get a proper Let It Be film release, with all the warts and conflict preserved. Tons of material there. But that kind of stuff doesn't exist for Pepper, so there's no point in asking for it.

In retrospect I think the Beatles began fragmenting with Revolver. Like the White Album much of it was recorded in a "solo artist with sidemen" fashion. Pepper is a more unified project, though George's head at the time was by his own admission in India. Listen to Only A Northern Song, the first song he submitted for Pepper, for his take on things at the time. Pretty sour…no wonder it was rejected. But with Pepper McCartney's songs have more of Lennon's fingerprints on them, and vice versa. IMO this is a good thing.

The Beatles' version of Not Guilty isn't a demo but rather a completed track that wasn't used, probably for the same reason Only A Northern Song wasn't ('til Yellow Submarine). Took nearly 100 takes to get it down too!

-Dave-

fronobulax said:

In a sense, I wasn't late, but the only Beatles I bought on vinyl was Abbey Road. Everything else remained contentedly in the background for me. Decades later, if I were building a personal recorded music collection I would probably add a couple others.

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yeah, I am thinking Revolver but key scratch Yellow Submarine from the album. Abbey Road, Let It Be, and I think that be it.

WW - the White Album!

Just a thought on Yellow Submarine. Obviously, the overplaying of the song because of the popularity of the movie totally changes everyone's feeling about the song, mine included. But remember, when Revolver came out, Yellow Submarine was just another song on the album, and a great example of the diversity of styles on the album - something Pepper is always lauded for, but really started on Revolver. When you think of it in the context of Revolver only, and try to put the movie out of your mind, it really is a very weird but fun song that style-wise is very unique, especially for 1966.

walrus

walrus said:

But remember, when Revolver came out, Yellow Submarine was just another song on the album, and a great example of the diversity of styles on the album - something Pepper is always lauded for, but really started on Revolver. When you think of it in the context of Revolver only, and try to put the movie out of your mind, it really is a very weird but fun song that style-wise is very unique, especially for 1966.

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The only single from Revolver was actually "Submarine" backed with "Eleanor Rigby", and it was, like most Beatles singles, a monster, sales/airplay wise.
It was a novelty song pure and simple, with the sound effects and the call-and-response bits.
I see George Martin at work recalling his novelty record work from the early 50's, with people like Peter Sellers.
Also a little bit of a continuation of the band image created by "HELP" the movie.
It was actually a pretty big hit, out here, at least, when I was ten.
I think it actually fit right in with the times and programming format of top 40 AM radio as novelty songs always had a presence going back at least as far as "the Witch Doctor", "Purple People Eater" and "Yellow Polka Dot Bikini" and songs like "Snoopy vs the Red Baron" , and "They're Coming To Take Me Away" were contemporary with "Submarine"
By the time the Yellow Submarine soundtrack came out though, that stuff was decidedly uncool anymore, like the Monkees and Herman's Hermits and bands wearing matching suits like Gary Lewis and the Playboys and Jay and the Americans.(anybody remember "This Magic Moment"?)
I always skipped right to tracks 3-6 on Yellow Submarine. I never had a clue that ""Only A Northern Song" hadn't made the cut for Pepper's and "Hey Bulldog" was one of my all-time favorite Lennon tracks from the first bar.
I don't remember "Submarine" getting an airplay revival from the movie, but again, maybe that was local thing.
I remember it as being completely overshadowed by White Album and Abbey Road on the radio, although I do recall a hellacious amount of merchandising tie-in with the movie.
I had the model


and still have a small hardback book with art straight from the movie.




OK that was a nakedly aggressive nostalgia jab, no apologies.
:glee:

Help was one of my favorite songs as a kid. Now that I remember. Lennon' vocal was awesome. And glad my dad had the blue and red albums on cassette and often played it in car. I would have been 12 ish. Maybe 13. Those songs rocked.

Help 1965, Shae Stadium. https://youtu.be/plSvZY-MMMI

Westerly Wood said:

Help was one of my favorite songs as a kid. Now that I remember. Lennon' vocal was awesome. And glad my dad had the blue and red albums on cassette and often played it in car. I would have been 12 ish. Maybe 13. Those songs rocked.

Help 1965, Shae Stadium. https://youtu.be/plSvZY-MMMI

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If "Help" was one of your favorites then I still submit you'd be very happy with Rubber Soul ("Run For Your Life", "The Word") and Revolver ("She Said She Said", "And Your Bird Can Sing")
And those're just the tunes that're reminiscent of "Help", style-wise.
Rubber Soul was the last one before they quit touring and in fact several tunes from it were on the set list on their last tour.
I have to remind that George was really standing out on these two as well, with "Think For Yourself" and "Nowhere Man" on Soul and "Taxman" , "I Want to Tell You" and even what I'd say was the first genuine full-fledged "raga rock" song, "Love You To", on Revolver.
In fact, thinking about it, Pepper's couldn't have happened without the studio sophistication they gained on Soul and Revolver, and I still prefer them over Pepper's.
To me, Pepper's just has way too many non-starters:
"Mr. Kite", "She's Leaving Home", "When I'm 64", and even (heresy!!) "With a Little Help From My Friends".
I could live without all of 'em but there's only 3 I could live without between Soul and Revolver.

adorshki said:

If "Help" was one of your favorites then I still submit you'd be very happy with Rubber Soul ("Run For Your Life", "The Word") and Revolver ("She Said She Said", "And Your Bird Can Sing")
And those're just the tunes that're reminiscent of "Help", style-wise.
Rubber Soul was the last one before they quit touring and in fact several tunes from it were on the set list on their last tour.
I have to remind that George was really standing out on these two as well, with "Think For Yourself" and "Nowhere Man" on Soul and "Taxman" , "I Want to Tell You" and even what I'd say was the first genuine full-fledged "raga rock" song, "Love You To", on Revolver.
In fact, thinking about it, Pepper's couldn't have happened without the studio sophistication they gained on Soul and Revolver, and I still prefer them over Pepper's.
To me, Pepper's just has way too many non-starters:
"Mr. Kite", "She's Leaving Home", "When I'm 64", and even (heresy!!) "With a Little Help From My Friends".
I could live without all of 'em but there's only 3 I could live without between Soul and Revolver.

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yeah Al, sounds like Rubber Soul and Revolver are the 2 Beatles efforts I need to purchase!

Quantum Strummer said:

In retrospect I think the Beatles began fragmenting with Revolver. Like the White Album much of it was recorded in a "solo artist with sidemen" fashion.

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I see it the other way 'round, seems to be confirmed by Wiki's Revolver page:
"The group's manager, Brian Epstein, had intended that 1966 would then follow the pattern of the previous two years,[6] in terms of the band making a feature film and an accompanying album,[7][8] followed by concert tours during the summer months.[9] After the Beatles vetoed the proposed film project, however, the time allocated for filming became a three-month period free of professional engagements.[6][10] The extended layoff allowed the band members to experience life outside the group collective for the first time since 1962,[11][12] as well as giving them an unprecedented amount of time to prepare for a new album.[10]"

Ok granted it says they had more time to themselves, but that in itself reduced the amount of "familiarity breeding contempt", as noted here:
"The camaraderie among the four Beatles was at its highest throughout this period.[63][64]"
They did much more ensemble recording on Revolver than Pepper's. (See George's recollection below)

To me the nature of the material itself on Pepper's was much more conducive to the "session men" atmosphere, and Paul's discovery of the mellotron as a primary composition and overdub tool for mimic-ing other instruments is part of what led to it :
(Wiki's Pepper's page):

"In an effort to get the right sound, the Beatles attempted numerous re-takes of "Getting Better". When the decision was made to re-record the basic track, Starr was summoned to the studio, but called off soon afterwards as the focus switched from rhythm to vocal tracking"
And:
"According to Barry Miles, Lennon resented McCartney's direction of the band as well as how, aside from "Strawberry Fields Forever", he himself was now supplying "songs to order" rather than "writing from the heart" as he had on Revolver."

Ok, that explains "Mr Kite".
I'd take "Northern Song" over that any day, although granted it wouldn't have been "in theme with the concept"
But then neither is "Within You Without You"

And:

"[86]Everett describes Starr as having been "largely bored" during the sessions, with the drummer later lamenting: "The biggest memory I have of Sgt. Pepper ... is I learned to play chess".[84] Speaking in 2000, Harrison said he had little interest in McCartney's concept of a fictitious group and that, after his experiences in India, "my heart was still out there … I was losing interest in being 'fab' at that point."[87] Harrison added that, having enjoyed recording Rubber Soul and Revolver, he disliked how the group's approach on Sgt. Pepper became "an assembly process" whereby, "A lot of the time it ended up with just Paul playing the piano and Ringo keeping the tempo, and we weren't allowed to play as a band as much."[88]"

After all that, though, we may simply have different interpretations of "unified":
I do have to admit that Pepper's is amazingly tightly mixed for all the elements that were used, and it is a pretty consistent "concept".
While Revolver is less "dense", it still was the one where they started using really sophisticated mixing and tape manipulation.

The whole difference between 'em is a perfect example to me of a concept about the difference between recording "back in the day" ('50's- '60's) and current practices, though.
I forget where I heard it first but it rang so true, that part of what made the less sophisticated and "live in the studio" pop records of the '60's so exciting was the excitement of the band members playing together, it was evident in the playing and that usually it was one of the first 3 takes (if even that many) that was the best, and after that the excitement fell off and it was usually evident in the result.
To me Pepper's simply has nowhere near the "excitement level" of most of the tracks on Soul and Revolver, and George nails it precisely.
Of course, "that's what he did."
:biggrin-new:

adorshki said:

"[86]Everett describes Starr as having been "largely bored" during the sessions, with the drummer later lamenting: "The biggest memory I have of Sgt. Pepper ... is I learned to play chess".[84] Speaking in 2000, Harrison said he had little interest in McCartney's concept of a fictitious group and that, after his experiences in India, "my heart was still out there … I was losing interest in being 'fab' at that point."[87] Harrison added that, having enjoyed recording Rubber Soul and Revolver, he disliked how the group's approach on Sgt. Pepper became "an assembly process" whereby, "A lot of the time it ended up with just Paul playing the piano and Ringo keeping the tempo, and we weren't allowed to play as a band as much."[88]"

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well, always wondered why Paul was my least favorite Beatle. Now I get why...

"To me Pepper's simply has nowhere near the "excitement level" of most of the tracks on Soul and Revolver."

Can't argue with that, Al.

Speaking of "excitement level", I always thought a lot of their early stuff had this "intangible" component the most. The best example (IMHO) is "She Loves you" which just jumps out of the speakers with tremendous energy.

From the Beatles Book:

"[FONT=times new roman,times]Before the "She Loves You" recording session began at 2:30 pm, The Beatles met in the alleyway outside the studios for a photo shoot. The usual group of Beatle fans could climb on top of the walls around the studio perimeter to see that they were there, which led them to alert more friends and increase in number.

[/FONT] [FONT=times new roman,times]Once The Beatles were inside for their recording session, the 'barbarians stormed the walls,' as Lennon joked, one of them even managing to get inside Studio Two, where The Beatles were. After being tackled by roadie Mal Evans and escorted out, it was discovered that fans were swarming all through the building. Police were enlisted to handle the matter, but the flattery and the adrenaline rush, no doubt, spurred The Beatles on to the performance of their life."

walrus

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walrus said:

"To me Pepper's simply has nowhere near the "excitement level" of most of the tracks on Soul and Revolver."

Can't argue with that, Al.

Speaking of "excitement level", I always thought a lot of their early stuff had this "intangible" component the most. The best example (IMHO) is "She Loves you" which just jumps out of the speakers with tremendous energy.

From the Beatles Book:

"[FONT=times new roman,times]Before the "She Loves You" recording session began at 2:30 pm, The Beatles met in the alleyway outside the studios for a photo shoot. The usual group of Beatle fans could climb on top of the walls around the studio perimeter to see that they were there, which led them to alert more friends and increase in number.

[/FONT] [FONT=times new roman,times]Once The Beatles were inside for their recording session, the 'barbarians stormed the walls,' as Lennon joked, one of them even managing to get inside Studio Two, where The Beatles were. After being tackled by roadie Mal Evans and escorted out, it was discovered that fans were swarming all through the building. Police were enlisted to handle the matter, but the flattery and the adrenaline rush, no doubt, spurred The Beatles on to the performance of their life."

walrus

[/FONT]

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"and you know that can't be bad..."