Does the master volume make mud?

parker_knoll

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I have a 1966 DE-400. I feel I could do with more top end, especially on the neck, and I'm wondering if the master volume is likely to reduce highs, since it adds an extra layer of resistance?

I think I might change that pot for a 1 meg, and possibly the neck volume as well, but another option would be to bypass it.

Another question: before i start taking strings off and pulling pickups, is Guild wiring generally the same as Gibson wiring of the same period?

Thanks

Toby
 

GAD

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I have a 1966 DE-400. I feel I could do with more top end, especially on the neck, and I'm wondering if the master volume is likely to reduce highs, since it adds an extra layer of resistance?

I think I might change that pot for a 1 meg, and possibly the neck volume as well, but another option would be to bypass it.

Another question: before i start taking strings off and pulling pickups, is Guild wiring generally the same as Gibson wiring of the same period?

Thanks

Toby

I haven't pulled apart a '66 (send me yours and I'll do it for free! :shame: ) but there are often odd little differences, at least in the '70s models I've examined. Some have 200k pots for tone, some have 500k. Some have .047 and .022 caps while others have the same caps on both neck and bridge. Some have coupled wiring, some don't. I've also not pulled apart a Dearmond-equipped guitar so I have no idea what's different if that's what you've got.

As for tone, yes you will change the circuit to have more resistance. If you always keep the individual volumes dimed and only use the MV, you may not notice a difference. Where you'll run into trouble is the middle position where you may have one or both volumes rolled back.

For me, a MV us useful for two things: Muting the guitar without changing the middle position volumes, and volume swells. I don't really ride the volume like a lot of players do, so your mileage may vary.
 

parker_knoll

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Thanks GAD. You may remember, this was one I actually put together from parts got from the rippers on eBay, but 90% of the parts were actually integral to the guitar (I think only the pickups and tuners I had to pick up elsewhere). I do like the MV, i pretty much never use the individual volume pots, I leave 'em up all the time and having adjusted the pickup heights to level out the volumes, and just use the switch and the MV for overall volume.

I would like a bit more brightness so I've ordered a couple of 1 Meg pots. When you mentioned coupled wiring, this is where turning down one pot all the way doesn't kill the guitar sound altogether as it does on a Gibson, is that right?
 

GAD

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Thanks GAD. You may remember, this was one I actually put together from parts got from the rippers on eBay, but 90% of the parts were actually integral to the guitar (I think only the pickups and tuners I had to pick up elsewhere). I do like the MV, i pretty much never use the individual volume pots, I leave 'em up all the time and having adjusted the pickup heights to level out the volumes, and just use the switch and the MV for overall volume.

I would like a bit more brightness so I've ordered a couple of 1 Meg pots. When you mentioned coupled wiring, this is where turning down one pot all the way doesn't kill the guitar sound altogether as it does on a Gibson, is that right?

Nice - always happy to see an old Guild restored.

Yes - the coupled/decoupled thing is as you describe.
 

mad dog

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My Dearmond T400 is an homage that that Guild DE-400, I think. This DA also has a master. Having been down the pot replacement road with Dearmonds before, I'm thinking this one has already had that attention. Both volume knobs are well behaved when turned down part way, which indicates better pots are in there. I do use volume knobs alot, so it's great that they're effective.

Using the MV and rolling off p/u volumes does dull the sound. When I want to use the MV, I tend to roll the other volume knobs up first. I had the same reaction to the MV knob on a 70s Guild SF VI. It's a good idea, but doesn't work well unless the other volumes are up fully or most of the way.
MD
 

parker_knoll

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cheers Ralf

EDIT: has anyone tried a treble bleed with Guild mini-hums?
 
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Walter Broes

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I like what people call "Gibson 50's wiring". The decoupled wiring Guild used back then (as did Rickenbacker btw..) makes for extreme mud as soon as you turn one of the pickup volumes down. With the Gibson wiring, there are no extra parts, and you can turn pickup volumes down gradually without things turning to instand mud.
 

Quantum Strummer

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I like "50s wiring" too, though it does make your vol & tone pots more interactive. I have a recent Supro Martinique reissue that uses this wiring scheme with three vol & tone pairs plus a master vol. The master has no audible effect on tonal balance, and since the magnetic pickups (there's also a piezo) have fixed heights I can roll off the neck p'up to balance it with the bridge without losing any top end.

-Dave-
 

parker_knoll

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yep, that's what I did to my Ric (which was newer) but was so far reluctant to mess with this vintage harness. I'll probably go ahead and stick 1Meg pots on the master and the neck volume and switch it to 50s wiring
 

Walter Broes

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The neck pickup on my '61 Starfire III is/was muddy too, no matter what pots were in there - I tried a harness with 1 Meg vol and tone on the neck pickup, and it didn't change much, pickup's just too hot I think. I ended up sticking a used recent reissue Gretsch pickup in the neck slot, and ta-daa : balance! Which kind of makes sense - the original DeArmonds in my guitar both measured out at around 12K resistance, the reissue Gretsch "Dynasonic" at around 8K. Much better balance with that hot lead pickup.
 

Quantum Strummer

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I ended up sticking a used recent reissue Gretsch pickup in the neck slot, and ta-daa : balance!

I had much the same issue with my Rickie 360, a '95 "v64" reissue. The pickups are the hot toasters Ric was (over)winding at the time. I love the beefy + cutting sound of those pickups in the bridge position but the neck p'up, with its vol reduced to balance better with the bridge, was pretty dark. For some years I put up with it (it's a great guitar: big, rich sound) but then Ric came to their senses, maybe also finally using up their supply of the hot p'ups, and came out with a lower wind, more vintage correct version. So I put one of those in the neck position, et voilà!

-Dave-
 

parker_knoll

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I had a '66 SF III that had my favourite neck pickup in any guitar ever. The neck mini-hum sounded almost like an acoustic: not at all boomy and no midrange push. Alas the action on that guitar stank and I sold it, but I've been chasing the sound ever since. A Ric toaster does make a good neck pickup because they naturally attenuate the bass spectrum - e.g. trebly, in normal lingo!

I actually swapped out the neck pup on the DE-400 to a chrome covered Mickey Mouse (if that's the right name for 'em). I'm not sure it's made a lot of difference, hence chasing further with 1M pots. I remember they did clear up my Ric quite a bit, as did changing to Gibson wiring.
 

Zelja

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Agree that the MV would have to make the guitar a little darker with everything full up. What really turns it to mud is when you drop the volume knob on the individual pickups due to the independent wiring. I really dislike that scheme & need to change it om my 60s Guilds, probably try 50s wiring for the tone pots too.

Re Rickys, they used independent wiring as well, at least the one I had, but the bridge pickup always had a capacitor in series with it before hitting the volume pot. What this did was make the bridge pickup brighter by filtering out lows. The pickup by itself actually loses some guts this way of course & imbalances it with the neck even more. Why do it then? Methinks it was to make the mix knob more useful when both pickups are on. The Mix knob (5th smaller knob) is actually another pot in series with the Bass Volume pot. It drops the volume of the bass pickup when that only is selected. In the middle posn though you get a great range of useful sounds at both extremes & especially on all stops in between. When it was wired this way I only ever played in the middle posn & adjusted the mix knob to suit.

Once I discovered this cap, I removed it and the bridge PU by itself sounded heaps better but the middle position lost the range it had previously.
 

Quantum Strummer

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Right, the Rickenbacker "blend" knob is a second vol pot for the neck pickup. It's typically a 500K pot compared to 250–330K for the standard vol & tone pots. So it gives you a gentler treble roll off as you turn it down. It also doesn't roll off the vol completely: max rolloff is ~50%.

The bright cap in series with the bridge pickup came from Ric experimenting with bridge pickup positioning in the '50s. Initially guitars with the p'up further away from the bridge got the cap. Eventually they settled on putting the p'up right next to the bridge, but kept the cap (with some models anyway) for quite awhile afterwards.

Here's a pic of my '59 Model 450:

ACB24484-B42B-4CC9-B888-802981AC6A95_zpsyojfrysc.jpg


It has the bright cap but no blend knob. It's also the only dual-pickup Rickie I know of with the cresting wave body shape and the more forward bridge pickup positioning.

-Dave-
 
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parker_knoll

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lovely pic, Quantum. Will we get kicked off the forum for a bit of Ric love?

I turned the 5th knob into a whole heap of things over the years (including controlling an onboard preamp switchable with a microswitch to get feedback on demand) until the saga was finally ended by losing the guitar in hock after I got laid off at one week's notice. Luckily those days are now distant.

Anyway, the pots have arrived so if the weekend is kind I'll Gibsonise the DE and stick 1M pots on the MV and the bridge pup and report back.
 

Kapten Kork

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I'm also intrested in the mv:s impact on treble.
I have a 66 starfire 5 and am trying to decide if I should "deactivate" the mv. Think it's a lot of work thou and that + rge vintage value is holfing me back. Hmm
 

Quantum Strummer

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So long as the MV pot's resistance isn't lower than that of the individual volume pots it shouldn't have any audible impact if you leave it wide open.

-Dave-
 
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