1998 Westerly F30 with Low Saddle and Slight Bridge Lift

marius

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Good day all. I'm new to LTG and to Guild's in general. I bought a new M120 last year because I didn't have the patience to wait for the Oxnard M20 to start shipping. I was bit by the bug and just picked up a 1998 F30 NT HR yesterday. Cosmetically it is in fantastic condition except for a little pick rash between the pick guard and bridge, but I'm perplexed by the saddle and hope someone can give me some insight. Regardless, it's going to to the shop next week for a setup but I'd be interested in some feedback from the LTG community.

The seller claims to have bought it new at The Podium in Minneapolis and that it has never had any bridge or saddle work but that seems suspect. As you can see in the photos there is very little saddle showing above the bridge, and the break angle is terrible which I think is probably contributing to the slight bridge lift. The action is a little high but not terrible - .11 Low E @ 12th Fret

Any thoughts? I can't imagine it would have come from the factory with such a low saddle, and I only know The Podium by reputation but I also can't imagine they would have dropped the saddle so low when new.

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Hi Josh! Pics would help to accertain whether the bridge has been shaved. They with have to be hosted and then linked to. Not sure why they aren't showing up for me.
 

txbumper57

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Here is a link to his Pictures for reference Default.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29734682@N07/34314042900/in/photostream/

That saddle is awfully low and I don.t see that leaving the factory that way. As far as the slight bridge lift, this is somewhat of a common fix on Westerly Guilds. Basically the glue didn't cure all the way up to the edge because of the finish which over time results in a slight bridge lift like yours has Josh. I have had this fixed on several older Westerly built Guilds and it shouldn't be too expensive. Also if done by a competent Luthier there should be no evidence of the repair after it is fixed. With the saddle that low if your action is high at the 12th fret you may be in Neck Reset territory. They could ramp the string slots to improve the break angle where the saddle is now if the action is good but if it is not You will most likely need a Neck reset. The bridge isn't lifting all that much so I am not sure how much string height will be restored after the bridge is re-glued but it doesn't look like it will add much. Best of luck with it!


TX
 

D30Man

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Welcome Marius! As you can see this forum is not short on knowledge and insight. That is why I keep hanging around. If a neck reset is in order based on 12th fret action and low saddle, I would say just have your luthier price it out. I could be wrong, but that is what will likely solve most of the problems short of the bridge lift/re-glue.

Not sure what a reset for your Guild will cost. I had my luthier reset a Gibson J-50 neck for $200.. Good luck!
 

kostask

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The guitar is in need of a neck reset, no way around it. After that, you can have a proper saddle put in. Bridge doesn't look like it is severely shaved, if at all; it is a little hard to tell from the pictures regarding the bridge. The break angle is close to non-existent, and the .11 action at the 12th fret is at about 7/64", where the target is usually around 5-5.5/64". Without much of a saddle left, there is no room to fix the action at the saddle. Ramping the string slots will help for now, but it can only be thought of as a temporary solution, as the neck angle will continue to worsen. The only real long term solution is to reset the neck, but this is pretty expensive, and from what I gather, finding a competent luthier is not easy in some parts of the country.
 

txbumper57

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My advice to you is if you like the guitar and want to invest the money in it go ahead and get a Neck Reset. Just so you know this can cost anywhere between $300-$700 on a Guild depending what all work is needed and who does the work. It is extremely important to have this work down by someone who knows what they are doing as this is a major repair and will effect everything from playability to the tone of your guitar. If you do want to keep the guitar I would get an estimate from your Luthier and then contact the seller you bought it from to see if he will partially reimburse you for the work needed since you bought it under the pretense that everything was good to go.

If you do not want to have the time and money invested in the guitar I would suggest contacting the seller and asking for a full refund to return the guitar. Depending on what you paid for the guitar, a major repair like a neck reset will almost certainly put the amount of money you have invested in the guitar over the amount of money you could get for the guitar at market value if you tried to sell it once the work was done. Just something to think about.

TX
 

westerlyborn

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I'd check for a belly bump before I'd pay for a neck set. You might get away with hydrating. See my post last week "Hydrating before worrying".
 

marius

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Thanks everyone for the feedback.
I picked up some feeler gauges and it turns out the neck had too much relief. Took it down to .010 and the action at the 12th fret dropped to .09 but obviously replacing the saddle will bring the action back up.
I'll definitely be taking it in to be checked out by a luthier, but I probably won't have time to take it in until the end of the month.
In the mean time there may be some "belly bulge", I'll monitor the case humidity and see if the top/bridge settles at all over the next week or so.

Thankfully I don't have a lot of $$ into it so I should be able to absorb repair costs (even a neck reset) and still stay at a fair market investment. Also it is a hand rubbed finish so if it does need a neck reset I at least won't have to worry about the nitro finish work.
 

kostask

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A significant "belly bump" usually indicates that the braces under the top have glue joint failure, or in some rare cases, the bridge plate may have issues. Dehydrated guitars tend to have low actions, as the top wood shrinks from lack of moisture, pulling the bridge downwards, and by extension, the strings get pulled closer to the fretboard. The above information from the original poster of a .11" string height pretty much rules out dehydration as a factor.

All that being said, almost all acoustics have some curvature to the top, and to some extent (varies between guitar designs), a bit of a belly while under string tension. An experienced luthier can tell you if it is normal or excessive.
 

adorshki

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Thanks everyone for the feedback.
I picked up some feeler gauges and it turns out the neck had too much relief. Took it down to .010 and the action at the 12th fret dropped to .09 but obviously replacing the saddle will bring the action back up.
I'll definitely be taking it in to be checked out by a luthier, but I probably won't have time to take it in until the end of the month.
In the mean time there may be some "belly bulge", I'll monitor the case humidity and see if the top/bridge settles at all over the next week or so.
Hi Marius welcome aboard!
I'm kinda surprised a late Westerly would need a reset this early, unless it was strung with mediums for too much of its life.
Guild shipped those with their private-labeled version of D'Addario's EJ-16, .012-.053pb uncoated, which had an .025 G instead of the .024 in the D'Addario-branded sets.
Been stringing my D25 with 'em since new with only a few exceptions and neck's still perfectly aligned (at least it was 3 weeks ago :biggrin-new: ).
The real way to check the need for a neck reset is to check the neck alignment to the bridge:
Now that you'v got the neck flattened out, and after you humidify it enough to get the belly reduced as much as possible, take a nice long straightedge. preferably over 18" long, and lay it edgewise down the center of the fretboard and extend it to the neck. **** (below)
Ideally the straightedge should just meet the crown of the bridge. If it falls below the crown significantly, like more than 1/16", that's a pretty sure indication the neck is needing a reset.
Somebody mentioned a 5-5.5/64" action height at 12th fret; that's pretty close but Guild's published spec at that time was actually 5.5-6/64 (.085-.093) on bass E at 12th fret and 4.5-5/64 (.070-.078) on treble E.
I agree with other opinions that that saddle looks a lot lower than I expect on late Westerlys.
Both of mine are full 5/32" or just over an 1/8" tall; my Corona D40's even taller at 3/16
Thankfully I don't have a lot of $$ into it so I should be able to absorb repair costs (even a neck reset) and still stay at a fair market investment. Also it is a hand rubbed finish so if it does need a neck reset I at least won't have to worry about the nitro finish work.
That finish IS NCL but it came in gel form and was applied by rubbing and left unbuffed.
You could actually buff it up if you wanted to, but the point is to use the same handling cautions as you would for gloss NCL.
There's a loyal late Westerly fan base here and I'm one of em, I think once you get 'er sorted out you're going to be very happy!
:friendly_wink:
**** edit: I forgot about the bridge lift, ideally you'd want that fixed before checking alignment as well, but if it's slight enough it won't be enough to cause that gross misalignment we're looking for, all by itself.
And TX was right, it's caused by the fact that Guild glued bridges on after finishing and the unfinished gluing area was a little smaller than the outline of the bridge.
So there was always a small outline of finish under the bridge, and the glue bond to the finish is stronger than the finish bond to the top.
So it shows that hairline crack when the stress builds up and pulls the bridge forward.
 
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+1 on checking the neck angle, now that you've taken some relief out, as Al says!

Also, I never judge anything strictly by saddle height on a USED guitar.
From what you said, it had TOO MUCH relief, and it has a low saddle. HMMM...
PERHAPS a previous owner was shaving the saddle to bring the action down...went a little too far (resulting in low saddle height), had some buzz or rattle because of it, and tried to get rid of the buzz or rattle by dialing in too much relief. It happens. It's not the right way to do it, but I've seen it.
You'll know when you replace the saddle with a compensated bone saddle.

And if you have an experienced guitar tech/luthier in your area, let him go over it, with you right there if possible! If not, make sure you ask TONS of questions!
 

cutrofiano

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...it's caused by the fact that Guild glued bridges on after finishing and the unfinished gluing area was a little smaller than the outline of the bridge.
Isn't that the way it's supposed to be?
Otherwise one would see an awkward seam all around the bridge.
The glue easily fills the gap that results from the brigde standing with it's outer edge on the finish - unless the finish was way too thick or, more likely, the cutout for the bridge in the finish too deep.

Moritz
 

txbumper57

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Isn't that the way it's supposed to be?
Otherwise one would see an awkward seam all around the bridge.
The glue easily fills the gap that results from the brigde standing with it's outer edge on the finish - unless the finish was way too thick or, more likely, the cutout for the bridge in the finish too deep.

Moritz

Yes but in this case Guild made the unfinished footprint a bit too small for the glue to adhere all the way to the edge resulting in less tension strength and a open seam on the edge after time with the ability to slide a business card under the edge of the bridge. At the time of Manufacture this was not a problem as the bridge was seated tightly against the top but over 20-30 years of tension the smaller glued area allows the bridge to start creeping a bit from the bottom lower side resulting in the small gap. This is a common issue on some Westerly made Guilds. I had this same problem on a 70's Guild 12 string dread. Cost about $100 to have a competent Luthier pull the bridge and resurface the area for the glue to adhere to. Then takes about a week or two cure time for the bridge to set up properly and repair the nitro if needed. When I got mine back you couldn't tell there was ever any kind of work done and it looked like new. Never had a problem with it since. Just one of those things you'll discover is sometimes a part of owning vintage Guilds. If you google it there are several references where others have had to do the same thing. Not a big deal by any means.

TX
 
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adorshki

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Isn't that the way it's supposed to be?
Otherwise one would see an awkward seam all around the bridge.
It only lifts at the back because string tension is pulling it forward, but it does extend somewhat to the sides as well.

or, more likely, the cutout for the bridge in the finish too deep.
If, by "cutout" you mean a recessed area for the bridge to fit into, no, they didn't do that until New Hartford, precisely to finally deal with that problem.
If you just mean a masked off area for the bridge while spraying the nitro, yes, that's how they did it.
Other makers glue the bridge first and then mask it before spraying.
Thee point is, if you hide-glue a bridge to NCL it will simply pull the NCL up and fail very quickly, because the NCL will bond to the hide-glue on the bridge much more strongly than it will to the top wood. It just "peels off".
In Guild's case it does it at the back edge if the original masked area was too small.
I've got it on my F65ce, and that's super-thin finish, but I don't know if it actually came out of the box that way and I just never noticed until about 4 years in (I bought it new with warranty at closeout price)
When I took it for an evaluation at the local Guild warranty shop I was advised to wait and monitor, primarily because of the potential finish patching issue. Use of NCL in CA had become heavily regulated and economically unfeasible for a small independant shop.
That was back in about '07 or '08 I think, and since then the warranty question has become "murky" although it would have qualified at the time.
D25 (also super-thin finish) and D40 (super thick finish) show nary a hint of it.
 
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swiveltung

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So... just curious... how does one release the glue bond of the rosewood bridge plate?
 

adorshki

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So... just curious... how does one release the glue bond of the rosewood bridge plate?
I assume just like any other hide glue bond: heat and moisture soften it up enough to break the bond.
When it comes to neck re-sets, the fret wire at the neck joint is removed and a couple of holes are drilled in the slot.
Then steam is injected into the joint through specialized needles.
It occurs to me this might be one reason bridge plate replacement is considered extremely difficult.
Getting steam in there must be tricky when the plate's almost completely surrounded by bracing.
Maybe they do it through the bridge pin holes?
But I've seen reports of top wood coming off with the plate, indicating the glue just didn't get completely softened, so it must be a pretty tricky process.
I'd bet Mr Cozad could shed more light on the question.
 
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