JF30 sounds better to the listener than to the player

Hello, friends
It's been four days since I got my JF30. Though I like the sound a lot, I find it sounds even better while hearing someone else play it.
To confirm this observation, I strummed the Guild as if it was a lap steel guitar. And yes, it sounds much better than standard playing position.
Theoretically it should be so because the player is not hearing the spruce top and the sound hole directly. Just that this effect is much more obvious on my JF30.
Feeling kind of mixed...because the player can't hear the best of it.
Looking on the bright side, if I screw up on the stage, I know it's gonna sound better for the audience.:biggrin-new:

I think this is going to be true for any acoustic instrument designed to project sound in front of the player. If you like it while playing then your audience will have an even better experience.

Allen Huang said:

...Though I like the sound a lot, I find it sounds even better while hearing someone else play it...

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I can (almost) recall the moment when that occurred for me. I was playing my new (at the time) F-50R, and was enthralled with it. And then I heard a friend play it. It sounded so magnificent! More so than it did when I was playing! As silly as it sounds now, at the time I wondered if it might be my friends special technique?

At some point I played that guitar into a microphone and monitored the output...and there it was...that rich, lush, orchestral sound my friend had coaxed out of it. I realized it wasn't technique that was responsible for what I was hearing; it was my proximity to the primary source of the sound of the guitar!

I mistook that primary source for the soundhole and decided to experiment: On a separate guitar (not my F-50R), I cut three holes into the upper bout (much to the horror of players and luthiers who knew me at the time). I was convinced that the guitar sounded better to me after the modification than before. In case anyone is wondering, I did not cut any holes in my Guild(s). Instead, I became more aware of the role of the guitar’s soundboard in delivering the audiences experience and didn’t revisit my hole cutting experiments for decades.

To satisfy my own listening needs, if I was not amplifying my guitar, I developed a habit of laying my head on the upper bout of the instrument while playing alone (if you haven’t tried it, give it a go).

It was some thirty years later that I became aware of soundports being deliberately designed into the upper bouts of guitars by progressive luthiers in order to enhance the player’s experience. {Sigh}

For those who may not be aware of soundports, they are designed to do precisely what their name suggests: they port sound to the player. Technically, as the sound is being generated by the soundboard, the player is hearing the sound from the back side of the guitar top combined with those wonderful overtones and harmonics all crashing about inside the box. While it is not exactly what the audience is hearing, it is an enhanced experience, though subtle, to be sure.

DISCLAIMER: I am not suggesting that everyone grab a drill, saw, files, sandpaper, etc. and start modifying their guitars. I will say that soundports can be / have been successfully added to existing instruments. In the meantime, play into a decent microphone and monitor your guitar through a set of headphones. Or lay your head on it’s shoulder. :love-struck:

An acoustic always sounds better and a lot more to the listener than the player. The past years I've done some solo gigs in weddings and funerals and when rehearsing at home and performing the songs for my wife before the gigs, she have always commented that the guitar was way too loud compared to my voice. This is an important thing to have in mind if you're an singer/songwriter, typically doing unplugged gigs, or at least gigs with minimal micing (or if you're like me, feeling awkward hearing your voice through a PA).

I'm always impressed by bluegrass bands that are capable of such amazing dynamics and balance between the instruments and voices and are only using one microphone.

http://theartoflutherie.com/guitar-side-sound-ports/

Christopher,
That was exactly what happened to me! My friend, who could only play a few open chords, made the guitar sound so much better than me. Then I began to notice this effect.
The first time I heard of soundports, it was a Singapore guitar brand named Maestro. I thought it'd sacrifice a bit of the guitar's vibration so I didn't even want to try one. Now it seems that this feature can be important...because it's gonna be the only monitor I have when I do an unplugged show.

Thanks, Grot, for the visuals. Tom Bills (Art of Lutherie) builds some pretty nice instruments, by the way, and happens to be a super nice guy, too!

Allen Huang said:

...soundports...the only monitor I have when I do an unplugged show.

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That, my friend, is an excellent way to describe them!

To my knowledge, no one has identified a negative impact on the tone of a guitar (measured as the audience hears it) when incorporating a soundport. There is, however, a science behind calculating the volume of air that is moved in and out of the guitar through any and all openings, as the soundboard is "pumping". Too large of a soundhole, or too many holes, can degrade the sound output (as can insufficient size). But there seems to be a fairly large area of forgiveness in between. For example, most jumbo guitars, with or without a soundport, have a soundhole diameter of approximately 4" (102mm). In other words, adding a soundport to an existing instrument usually accomplishes precisely what one would expect or hope for.

A producer friend of mine would have the acoustic guitarist play facing a mirror or other similarly hard surface during soundcheck and rehearsals and even sometimes during recording, so they could really hear what they were playing!

Allen Huang said:

Looking on the bright side, if I screw up on the stage, I know it's gonna sound better for the audience.:biggrin-new:

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Yep. All my guitars sound better when somebody else plays 'em.
:glee:

Nice pics Grot! I remember seeing a guitar ad selling a guitar with the electronics removed from the side of the upper bout, and they claimed it worked better as a sound port !

adorshki said:

Yep. All my guitars sound better when somebody else plays 'em.
:glee:

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Whew! I thought it was just me. There have been many a time when I have handed my guitar off to someone, "Here, you play something now" and shazam! My guitar really sounds great! (nice guitar!)

During those times I was thinking they were bringing something I wasn't to the sound of the guitar (sigh). Definitely guitars sound better when they're facing and projecting the sound towards you.

I have got in the habit of leaning back in my chair and reclining while playing my acoustics at the house. Just resting the guitar on my chest not only relieves any pain issues I have with my left shoulder but it also allows my to hear the guitar from more of a Frontal angle than I would while playing standing or sitting in a regular position. This really lets you hear the tone of your guitar as if someone else was playing it and personally I find the tone to always be better when hearing it from the soundboard as opposed to the side of the upper bout.

I have only played one guitar that had a soundport and it was a Mcpherson guitar. While the soundport did improve the tone from the side, to me it was still not as good as the tone coming out of the front of the guitar. I don't know if that would be a good comparison though since Mcpherson guitars have non traditional sound holes anyway. Still I can see how the Soundport would be useful for someone trying to gauge the actual volume of their guitar when playing and singing acoustically without a mic.

TX

Two of my Guilds came with those so-called "barn door" electronics panels in the side. I pulled 'em out and voila -- instant sound ports.

Playing facing into a corner is called "corner loading." Ry Cooder suggests that that was what Robert Johnson was doing when engineers for one of his sessions reported him recording this way. They thought he was just shy, or trying to hide his open tunings.

Glenn

Great topic & sound ports very well explained Christopher. I had seen them previously on the Macphersons.

I can understand the acoustics sounding better when someone else plays them as described in the thread but how do you explain all my electrics sounding better when my friend plays them through the same amp/position. Hmmmm...

Zelja said:

Great topic & sound ports very well explained Christopher. I had seen them previously on the Macphersons.

I can understand the acoustics sounding better when someone else plays them as described in the thread but how do you explain all my electrics sounding better when my friend plays them through the same amp/position. Hmmmm...

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Interesting question. I can think of two factors immediately. First, our ears receive sound waves depending on the angle from where they are coming. Even though you're playing an electric, which obviously has much different audio characteristics than an acoustic, still the player is usually positioned differently from someone listening. Secondly, and just as significant I believe, is the psychological factor. When you are playing the guitar you are relating to what you are doing which has a certain amount of ambiguity associated with it. While playing, I am aware of how well I'm doing, missing notes or not missing notes, experimenting successfully or unsuccessfully. Thus, one is emotionally involved in the moment. Listening to someone else playing is an entirely different experience psychologically. One tends to make judgments based on diffearent criteria, and often there is the element of wonderment more likely when you're a listener as opposed to a performer.

bruzmuse said:

Whew! I thought it was just me. There have been many a time when I have handed my guitar off to someone, "Here, you play something now" and shazam! My guitar really sounds great! (nice guitar!)
During those times I was thinking they were bringing something I wasn't to the sound of the guitar (sigh). Definitely guitars sound better when they're facing and projecting the sound towards you.

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It was supposed to be a double-edged joke but it is true.
(That they usually sound better when you're the audience, and about 5 feet away.)
:friendly_wink:

Similar to corner playing: I play against a solid 32' wall in my living room every now and then. Just yesterday I did with my JF30 … fascinating!

Markus :smile:

I typically play to my Beagle and my Coon Hound. (my Labs aren't into it). When they get to howling then I know I'm doing something pretty good. (not that it happens often)

I am right there with ya Richard. My 2 Great Danes are the perfect audience. Sometimes I have to break out the guitar and play to get Memphis (My Male Dane) to settle down in the evenings. I'll pick up the guitar and start playing some finger style stuff (Blues is his Favorite) and he comes running to the bedroom, Gets comfortable, and just chills out. Normally Cheyenne (my Female Dane) snuggles up next to him and puts her head on his butt which sometimes erks him a bit. I have had to break out the guitar at 3am to get them to go back to bed after hearing something in the night. Gotta love the pups man!


TX

txbumper57 said:

I am right there with ya Richard. My 2 Great Danes are the perfect audience. Sometimes I have to break out the guitar and play to get Memphis (My Male Dane) to settle down in the evenings. I'll pick up the guitar and start playing some finger style stuff (Blues is his Favorite) and he comes running to the bedroom, Gets comfortable, and just chills out. Normally Cheyenne (my Female Dane) snuggles up next to him and puts her head on his butt which sometimes erks him a bit. I have had to break out the guitar at 3am to get them to go back to bed after hearing something in the night. Gotta love the pups man!



TX

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I hear you TX, but I'm not totally sure. I have two doggies as well. Usually, when I'm playing they end up, or at least one of them ends up lying close by, chillin' out; especially the one that tends to be jealous of my company. I don't know if they find the music soothing, or as dogs tend to be jealous of their companions, they're staying close, ready to horn into my lap, as soon as I stop playing!