Sitka Spruce & Rosewood: F-150RCE (GAD) No. 71153 (2013) vs. No. 72820 (2014)

cutrofiano

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I have bought a second F-150RCE (GAD) (too low priced to let go...) and I share the comparison with you.

Here comes No. 71153 (2013):

Endkontrolle 71153.JPG


Seriennummer%202.JPG


No%2071153%20Decke.JPG


No%2071153%20Boden.JPG


And here comes No. 72820 (2014):

Endkontrolle 72820.JPG


No%2072820%20Decke.JPG


No%2072820%20Boden.JPG


This is what an expert says about the Sitka spruce top:

[...] They are pretty much equal from an acoustic quality standpoint.
They look equally well cut, judging from the silking across both.
The second one is probably more expensive, but it does have some colour issues.
The first one is cleaner but with some wavy grain and some wider grain in the middle (of each half). I suspect the first one, with the wider grain, sounds nicer.

If I had to grade them, I would put the first one at AA, and the second at AA+, but I know guitar makers who would prefer the first one, because they don’t like such tight grain (in the second).
[...]


Sound wise I cannot compare them yet concludingly because the new one has (new) D'Addaraios EJ16-3D put on while my old one has my preferred Earnie Ball Earthwood (medium light).
On both guitars I have exchanged Nubone saddle, nut & pins for reall bone.
As far as that goes the 2013 guitar with the wider grain and the Earnie Balls sounds better (more balanced, more bass).
But that's what I like the Earnie Balls for so let's see after I have put them on the 2014 as well...
The 2014s is some 100 gr. (3,5 oz.) heavier, which would be typical for the tighter grain but I suppose that may also result from a different grade of drying.

Cheers,
Moritz
 
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Cougar

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I thought tighter grain meant wood from older growth trees, which was preferable. (?)
 

cutrofiano

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I thought tighter grain meant wood from older growth trees, which was preferable. (?)
Slower growth is what makes tighter wood.
That is for why trees for tone wood are preferable taken from up in the mountains where growth is slower.
Tighter grain results in wood with higher density and is generally favored, but, as mentioned above, for tone reasons lighter wood with wide grain may be sought-after.
Adirondack spruce (american red spruce) has typically wide grain

3_ad_top.jpg

www.lakewood-guitars.de

and is light.
The top of my 2013 F-150RCE looks Adirondack alike

No%2071153%20Decke.JPG


but must be from a fast grown regular Sitka spruce as it comes most likely from western Canada (British Columbia) where Adirondack doesn't occur.

The other one looks like a typical high grade Sitka spruce (example is AAA):

3_si_top.jpg

www.lakewood-guitars.de

No%2072820%20Decke.JPG


Moritz
 
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Rayk

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Since I like hang myself often , tonality wise there's no proof that grain spacing is a definitive "yes" to tighter grain is better as to the tone . The debate of Adirondack is a good reference since old stock is rare and wide growth rings from 2 gen is most common now .
As for the woods tone it's either gunna make you smile or not . The tree don't care what it sounds like lol
A tight grain old growth tree might only yield a single 24" or 2 ft piece that's sounds fantastic the rest just might sound " ok " same with a younger faster growth wide grain tree.
Warmer/longer growth seasons means wider grain no matter where it's growing.
Imperfections like bear claw are highly praised by builders for promising better tone but not by the fashion police , wide grain is a fashion no no but becoming more excepted . Just think of all the wasted Ebony trashed just because it wasn't black but yet offered the same performance . :(

No two guitars from the same tree will be the same and build is everything even the bracing faces the same issues, all contributing to the guitars tone .

What a wonderful journey wood is , fascinating :)
 
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Christopher Cozad

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Well said, Ray.

And congratulations, Moritz! I am eager to hear your thoughts, once you get to A / B the sound.
 

Neal

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As important as the wood is what the builder does with it.

So many variables...shape, size, weight, wood thickness, bracing, scale, location of soundhole and bridge, neck joint, neck shape, fretwork, finish, etc, etc.

Great wood will by no means ensure a great guitar. Good wood can be made better by a skilled hand.
 

cutrofiano

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As important as the wood is what the builder does with it...
It sure is.
Example: The tighter grain spruce is heavier but more rigid.
Therefore it has the potential for a thinner top with superiour ability to resonate.
But in industrial production like the GAD's most propably nobody cares to treat logs different so tops with wide grain or tight grain will have the same thickness which then gives the wide grain wood the opportunity to benifit from its lower density and lighter weight at a given gauge.

Moritz
 
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cutrofiano

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...I am eager to hear your thoughts, once you get to A / B the sound.

Today I put new Earnie Ball Earthwood medium light on both guitars and took them for a sound check to my local Guild dealer (the oldest and most reputable local music store) to have a third opinion.
The result was significant.
What was only supposed when the newer 2014 F-150RCE still had the D'Addarios EJ16 on now was clearly confirmed:
The 2014 F-150RCE (the one with the tighter grain top) seems to be a bit louder, sounds more metallic bright, but the 2013 twin (with the wider grain top) sounds much more balanced with more bass - simply more pleasing.
The vote from the Guild dealer expert came immediately and positive and favored clearly the older 2013 exemplar.

But before seeing any context with the different top styles – wider grain and tight grain:
The 2013 guitar, sent in to me one year ago from Spain, has been out of the case and played at least since I bought it, while the 2014 GAD has spent probably most if it's life within its TKL case.
And: The 2014 GAD (still?) weighs 100gr more, than its 2013 twin.
It'll be interesting to see, if the weight difference decreases, if I keep the 2014 under day light for a year and play it regularly – and how the sound develops.
I m quite sure, it will develop...

Moritz
 
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merlin6666

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And: The 2014 GAD (still?) weighs 100gr more, than its 2013 twin.
It'll be interesting to see, if the weight difference decreases, if I keep the 2014 under day light for a year and play it regularly – and how the sound develops.

Interesting observation. The 100g could also be more glue, or less shaving of the braces, or a thicker top, or a thicker finish - all of which could reduce vibration and output a bit, but audibly.
 

dreadnut

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I have a hand-made mandolin with some really tight-grained spruce. It really barks.
 

adorshki

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It sure is.
But in industrial production like the GAD's most propably nobody cares to treat logs different so tops with wide grain or tight grain will have the same thickness which then gives the wide grain wood the opportunity to benifit from its lower density and lighter weight at a given gauge.
Small point of clarification:
Grand Reward did not select the wood for GADs.
In fact Fender controlled the wood supply for GAD production to ensure their quality standards would be maintained (and possibly for reasons of CITES certification?)
Anyway, they shipped the wood for GAD's to Grand Reward.
I doubt they shipped un-graded logs, it would defeat the purpose.
I assume they did ship in whole blocks of already graded wood for sheeting but it's possible they shipped in already sheeted tops and sides and backs, ready for final fitting and gluing.
Can't remember if that was ever spelled out.
 

adorshki

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Interesting observation. The 100g could also be more glue, or less shaving of the braces, or a thicker top, or a thicker finish - all of which could reduce vibration and output a bit, but audibly.

I bet a combination of any or even all of those variables is most likely.
 

Westerly Wood

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You just quoted and replied to yourself. That is awesome.
 

adorshki

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I tried to verify that with a decibel app and found it's not true:
The fact, that it sounds brighter obviously only makes you think it's louder.

Moritz
I applaud your actual use of a measuring tool to test the hypothesis, no joke.

Psychoacoustics:
Treble frequencies are perceived as louder than bass frequencies at equal volumes.
I suspect an evolutionary reason for that, better ability to hear babies crying, for example.
Better ability to identify wild animal cries at a distance which could enhance avoidance of, or pursuit of them.
 

cutrofiano

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Pity: I will not be able to follow the 2014's aging any more:
I sold it - not only for (quite a bit) more than what I paid for it but for more than it had cost brand new.
Also China Guilds have their development of price...

I guess this

optimal%20number%20of%20guitars


does not necessarily apply for two of the same kind :)

Moritz
 
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