NGD JF30-12 1998-ish?

Rickenmaxer

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Greetings to all. Long-time lurker and frequent visitor with a long-lived admiration of Guild guitars of all varieties. I pulled the trigger on a nice enough looking Westerly JF30-12 that showed up on EBay through a pawn shop's listing. Owning a wonderful New Hartford F50 6-string, I've been on the lookout for a maple 12 and this one was priced right. Its condition was described as "Good" for its age, with a small rough spot on the bass-side lower bout, two small chips in the binding finish, and slight bridge lift where you'd expect to see it on the side toward the end pin.

Per the description, (due to the lift?) it had been stored and subsequently shipped with tension off the strings. Despite that and the decrepit strings that had only one or two wraps each, it tunes and holds to pitch, and the action is reasonably low. There's actually a very slight back-bow to the neck, but it isn't causing buzzing at any fretted position. A straight edge on the fretboard runs right to the top of the bridge, and it looks like there's still some saddle left. The bridge-lift is not bad, allowing only the top edge of a playing card (less than 2-3mm) with no gap at the treble corner, and there's only a barely perceptible bit of bellying below the bridge. Intonation is decent given the cruddy strings and questionable storage. I'm going to put a new set of light strings on it and let it humidify for a week in its case before I do any additional tweaking with truss rods, etc. (Or should I let it humidify with the existing strings then restring it?)

[Quick sidebar: The auction indicated it's a 1996 model, but the Serial Number -- AJ321913 -- extends beyond the Westerly years on the Guild .pdf with AJ321291 being the last number shown in 1997. Any firm guidance on the date?]

So, being in "good" condition, I can live with a few patches of light finish crazing on the top and a small ding on the side neck that weren't called out. One thing, though, that wasn't mentioned in the description or shown in photos is a section of heavy lacquer checking on the headstock neck joint (picture link below). While I can feel the edge of the larger u-shaped crack you see that's just above the nut line, I don't believe the neck wood is cracked given the overall stability of everything under tension. And there's no sign of repair/refinishing to the area. It's hard to tell if the trauma might have happened in transit this week or if its an old injury. Of course, the auction photos of the head stock cut off right below the tuners (and above this area). Thoughts or advice on it?

GuildJF30-12_neckjoint_zps8xvb4znb.jpg


At the very least, I'm going to contact the seller to see if they acknowlege it or have photos of the full neck/headstock length to verify. I'm not sure I would have bid on it if I'd seen it, though, if everything remains stable, it will still be a decent buy. I'm definitely loving this guitar and can't wait to get it set up properly with fresh strings. And I thank you all for the years of experience and information that this site has provided.
 
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atmarama

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I'm sure some more knowledgeable folks will chip in here, but congrats on your new 12 string. I have a JF30-12 and she is a big blonde and beautiful instrument..
 

Cougar

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Owning a wonderful New Hartford F50 6-string, I've been on the lookout for a maple 12 and this one was priced right.

I was watching that auction. Major congrats! I'll say it was priced right! At that price, you could have done whatever little work it might need, and it's all good! I absolutely love my Corona-built JF30-12.
 

adorshki

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While I can feel the edge of the larger u-shaped crack you see that's just above the nut line, I don't believe the neck wood is cracked given the overall stability of everything under tension. And there's no sign of repair/refinishing to the area. It's hard to tell if the trauma might have happened in transit this week or if its an old injury. Of course, the auction photos of the head stock cut off right below the tuners (and above this area). Thoughts or advice on it?
Hi Rick: I hate to be the alarm sounder but if you can feel the edge of that U-shaped crack, to me that's the indicator that in fact the wood is cracked. It's also exactly the shape you'd expect in a crack along with having the rough edge of the grain of the wood.
You wouldn't feel the edge of simple finish crazing like it is on the other side of the neck.
Note how that side shows a pattern that I'd expect to see resulting from impact stress.
I think the two sides behaved differently because of the center-strip in the neck.
The 3 piece construction is intended to stabilize it from twisting and in this case I suspect that's what's keeping things "stable".
Another possibility since you mention "backbow" is that somebody tried to tighten the truss rod(s) unequally. There's actually 2 of 'em in that neck and we've seen cracks in necks from improper adjustment method before, but usually farther down below the nut, and along the grain instead of across it.
The fact that there were no pics of that area of the neck arouses my suspicion too.
If it was me I'd be doing everything I could to return it unless you want to try for compensation for the work required to fix that crack.
It might have happened in transit, so it'll be interesting to see if seller has the "Before" pics you're asking for.

GuildJF30-12_neckjoint_zps8xvb4znb.jpg


Best of luck, sir!
 

Rickenmaxer

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"...if you can feel the edge of that U-shaped crack, to me that's the indicator that in fact the wood is cracked. It's also exactly the shape you'd expect in a crack along with having the rough edge of the grain of the wood.
You wouldn't feel the edge of simple finish crazing like it is on the other side of the neck.
Note how that side shows a pattern that I'd expect to see resulting from impact stress.
I think the two sides behaved differently because of the center-strip in the neck."

Thanks, Al. That, of course, was one of the first things i thought of when I saw it...especially given the seller's indication that it was stored and shipped at reduced string tension. And your theory on the way the neck halves took the trauma differently due to the center strip is likely spot on. Like I said, all other things being more or less favorable, I'm inclined to hold onto it for now; maybe keep it tuned down a whole note, though if it is an actual crack, I have a feeling even ~200-lbs of tension is a gamble. But I will see what the seller has to say about it all.

Also, I heard from Hans Moust about the serial number question, and he confirmed that it is a 1999 model, confirmed, too, by the interior neck block stamp being Sep 02, 1999. (Thanks again, Hans!)

-Max
 

twocorgis

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"...if you can feel the edge of that U-shaped crack, to me that's the indicator that in fact the wood is cracked. It's also exactly the shape you'd expect in a crack along with having the rough edge of the grain of the wood.
You wouldn't feel the edge of simple finish crazing like it is on the other side of the neck.
Note how that side shows a pattern that I'd expect to see resulting from impact stress.
I think the two sides behaved differently because of the center-strip in the neck."

Thanks, Al. That, of course, was one of the first things i thought of when I saw it...especially given the seller's indication that it was stored and shipped at reduced string tension. And your theory on the way the neck halves took the trauma differently due to the center strip is likely spot on. Like I said, all other things being more or less favorable, I'm inclined to hold onto it for now; maybe keep it tuned down a whole note, though if it is an actual crack, I have a feeling even ~200-lbs of tension is a gamble. But I will see what the seller has to say about it all.

Also, I heard from Hans Moust about the serial number question, and he confirmed that it is a 1999 model, confirmed, too, by the interior neck block stamp being Sep 02, 1999. (Thanks again, Hans!)

-Max

I was watching that guitar as well, but need another 12er like a hole in the head! That u shape crack looks potentially nasty, and given the price you paid, I would have a professional assess what it really is. Much better to fix it (if needed) the way it is now, than to let it break the rest of the way. those late Westerly guitars were the best ones to ever leave that plant, enjoy the new addition to the family!
 

adorshki

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Thanks, Al. ...though if it is an actual crack, I have a feeling even ~200-lbs of tension is a gamble. But I will see what the seller has to say about it all.
You're welcome and the real point of the "alarm" was to try to forestall potential further damage as quickly as possible.
:friendly_wink:
 

GuildFS4612CE

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I would have it evaluated by a luthier. Looks like a typical smiley face headstock impact crack...if it is, it won't remain stable under tension. If the seller provides a recent before pic, that can help you decide what to do. If you like the guitar, and the price is right, it is certainly fixable and can be a good player.
 

Rickenmaxer

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Great advice and consensus to have this headstock crack checked out before it gets worse. Does anybody have a recommendation for a Guild-comfortable luthier in the Philadelphia area? I've had warranty work done on my F50 out of the Cordoba/Guild authorized repair center in Freehold NJ, but that's a good 1-1/2 hours from me. Thanks.

-Max
 

geoguy

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If Hopewell NJ isn't too far for you to travel (vicinity of Princeton NJ, I think), I'm sure Curt Wilson could inspect or repair that for you.

Old School Guitar Repair, Restoration & Lutherie
  • 95 Pennington-Hopewell Rd.
  • Hopewell, NJ 08525
  • 609.209.6376
 

Rickenmaxer

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Much obliged for the lead. I'll keep y'all posted on the saga as it unfolds.
 

bobouz

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Imho, it's a crack for sure, and the finish checking has occurred as a result of the impacted area.

Don't know what you paid for it, but when deciding whether or not to keep it, you should factor in the cost of repair, and also consider that the future resale value of the instrument has literally taken quite a hit.

I'd be returning it, and would then look for one that's in better condition. JF-30 12s do seem to come up for sale frequently.

Hope it all works out for you.
 

Rickenmaxer

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After consultation with a few local folks, even if the crack were through to the wood, until there's actually a structural separation it really isn't worth attempting the repair until the headstock joint is no longer stable or holds tune, etc. The seller and I negotiated an additional discount in the event that future neck repair is necessary, so I'm keeping this baby.

After 2+ weeks, everything's still holding strong at full concert pitch. I've restrung with Elixir Nanoweb Lights and cleaned things up a bit, and I'm absolutely in love with the sound and playability of this guitar. It's transcendent, angelic, and all the other ethereal/ephemeral other-worldly adjectives used to describe the ringing, sustained sound a good Guild 12-string can put forth. Truly a thing of beauty. The action is still spot on with the re-string (lower than my New Hartford F50 6-string, actually), and the intonation with the new strings is vastly improved especially in the upper register even without a compensated bridge. It's definitely been a worthwhile acquisition so far, and, if I eventually need to spring for a headstock repair and reglue the bridge, it's still well under average price for similar JF30-12s seen online. And, no, resale value isn't really part of the equation for me...I bought it as a player, and, so long as it plays well, it stays. So far, so good.

Thanks again to all for opinions, advice, and info.

I've attached a few pics now that it's cleaned up:

Front -
JF30-12front_zpsobrlw9sn.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

Back (nice and flamey) -
JF30-12back_zpshm1q2boo.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

And a family portrait with its 6-string Connecticut cousin -
JF30-12F50portrait_zps0urfr0qz.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 

adorshki

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After consultation with a few local folks, even if the crack were through to the wood, until there's actually a structural separation it really isn't worth attempting the repair until the headstock joint is no longer stable or holds tune, etc.
Oh that's interesting, who'da thunk?
Knowing Guild, and maple, that's gonna be a l-o-o-o-n-g time.
:friendly_wink:

Congrats!
 

Cougar

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....I'm absolutely in love with the sound and playability of this guitar. It's transcendent, angelic, and all the other ethereal/ephemeral other-worldly adjectives used to describe the ringing, sustained sound a good Guild 12-string can put forth. Truly a thing of beauty.

Outstanding! I know the feeling!
 

MancJonny

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That's waxing pretty lyrical.

I had a 1999 JF30-12:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?154973-Just-purchased-JF30-12&highlight=aj321563

Once I had had the action (and one or two other things) sorted it did ring out beautifully - but . . . . after a while it's toppy jingly-jangliness grated, especially after I had gotten my sticky puds on an old Gibson mahogany 6-string.

I know that for many players that maple brightness is what they want in a Guild 12-string; but for me the sweetness of mahogany is more pleasing, especially when played at a lower volume - something mentioned by other players on these forums.

Bang-for-buck, however, the JF30-12 can't be beaten.
 
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