Plastic headstock veneers - dates?

aamapes

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When did Guild stop using the plastic and pearl logo headstock? Chicago Music Exchange has a 60's F20 they claim has a 70's neck, but it looks like the plastic headstock to me.
 

chazmo

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Alan, The G-shield headstock was always plastic until New Hartford decided to use ebony in 2009 (i.e., when they started producing D-55s). I am aware of some G-shield cocobolo headstocks that were made for a few guitars for NAMM by (I think) the custom shop at the time in Nashville, but these were never production guitars. These were, I think, Tacoma-built (2005-2008) guitars. There may have been onesy-twosies before that during Guild's history, but I'm not aware of any actual model that was ever built with anything but the black plastic veneer. Actually, I don't think it's plastic, per-se, but I can't remember what it was. Not wood.
 

Christopher Cozad

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Charlie and aamapes,

Not all those headstocks were black plastic (celluloid). Many of the Westerly models were black fiber (laminated paper). I know, as I have refinished several Guilds. With several coats of lacquer atop them, all the headstocks are "plasticky" shiny, and it is difficult (if not impossible) to tell them apart, especially when new. As the guitars age, however, and the solvents flash off the celluloid, the "plastic" headstock overlays will shrink, just as the pickguards do, pulling inward, away from the binding. Albeit after the fact, those guitars are easy to identify. So are the black fiber ones - they didn't shrink.

I would be interested in discovering the particulars behind the decisions to use celluloid and fiber; what years was which material in use, and on which models? Anyone want to start a database? It would be additional detail for Hans' compilations.

Enquiring minds want to know!
 

chazmo

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Awesome, Chris!

That is interesting. Do you know if the fiber came later? Perhaps they moved to it because of the plastic shrinkage. Good idea to collect some data, but there probably aren't a lot of folks who would know the difference on their axes. Maybe Hans knows if there was some switchover at Guild. I would imagine it was universal for all the black/MOP G-shield models.

Do they still use celluloid for pickguards, Chris? I didn't think modern pickguards were subject to shrinkage but maybe I'm wrong about that.
 

Christopher Cozad

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...Do you know if the fiber came later?
I do not know, but I think it would be interesting to find out.

...Perhaps they moved to it because of the plastic shrinkage.
That would make sense, but I don't know.

...Do they still use celluloid for pickguards, Chris? I didn't think modern pickguards were subject to shrinkage but maybe I'm wrong about that.
Charlie, I believe the pickguards of today are made from assorted resins and dyes and are much more stable than the plastic of yesteryear. Additionally, builders no longer apply the finish over the top of the pickguard but, rather, attach the pickguard atop the finish. I don't use pickguards on my own instruments, and only a few my Guilds still have pickguards.

Of course, the headstock materials are a different story...you *have* to apply the finish over the headstock. I use wood and wood veneers (glued directly to the neck material), as do most of the builders I know. I have no experience with plastics of any kind. I have seen Guilds that had the plastic headstock overlays that had shrunk away from the bindings - not pretty.
 
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idealassets

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I replaced one celluloid headstock with a strip of ebony on my previously owned 1966 Guild F312. This required a lot of detail work, but a local luthier convinced me that he was the one that could do the job (not). We attempted to glue & clamp the end knob where the celluloid came warped and unglued, only to find that a few other areas sprung loose instead.

I then brought it to an different more expensive luthier that did the work, and I provided him with a detail drawing of the Guild logo measurements to the nearest 1/64 inch and labelled all the angles and radius, along with providing the original removed plate that was warped. I had the logo redone in pearl finish, not "pearloid" and the result was impressive.

This repair is doable and the appearance is first class when compared to a warped celluloid headstock cover plate. There is still choice ebony available with no tan streaks in the wood that will provide a great gloss black finish when complete.
 
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davismanLV

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Hey Christopher, are the paper laminated fiber ones similar to (or identical to) Richlite? Such a versatile product that's durable and resilient. Makes a decent fretboard material and I'd imagine it would be great on a headstock. You can mill it and work it just like wood. Just wondering if we're talking about the same type of product here. Resin and paper is way more stable than plastic in most uses.
 

chazmo

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...
Charlie, I believe the pickguards of today are made from assorted resins and dyes and are much more stable than the plastic of yesteryear. Additionally, builders no longer apply the finish over the top of the pickguard but, rather, attach the pickguard atop the finish. I don't use pickguards on my own instruments, and only a few my Guilds still have pickguards.

Of course, the headstock materials are a different story...you *have* to apply the finish over the headstock. I use wood and wood veneers (glued directly to the neck material), as do most of the builders I know. I have no experience with plastics of any kind. I have seen Guilds that had the plastic headstock overlays that had shrunk away from the bindings - not pretty.
Indeed. Maybe it was the groovy '60s that made them even consider building a headstock with a giant plastic veneer. Would be interesting to have been a fly on the wall to know what made them do that.

My treasured Ibanez Artwood has a beautiful rosewood pickguard that was, indeed, applied prior to the finishing step. That's been stable without any problems since I bought it new as a teenager. Did Guild apply their pickguards before finishing on any of your axes, Chris? I was under the (possibly false) impression that Guild didn't do that.
 

Quantum Strummer

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The tortoise veneer (hard to see the swirls in this pic) on my '42 Martin 0-15's headstock has held up real well. Dunno exactly what it's made of. The guitar's pickguard crumbled, though, and was replaced when I had the guitar restored last fall.

71D38833-2FDE-4138-9A45-FC554EA7EB57_zpsfo25bil2.jpg


-Dave-
 

Christopher Cozad

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Hey Christopher, are the paper laminated fiber ones similar to (or identical to) Richlite? Such a versatile product that's durable and resilient. Makes a decent fretboard material and I'd imagine it would be great on a headstock. You can mill it and work it just like wood. Just wondering if we're talking about the same type of product here. Resin and paper is way more stable than plastic in most uses.
That would certainly be preferred, Tom. This material is a black paper, about 1/8" thick, like an ultra-heavy card stock, very much devoid of resin. The tiniest drop of water on it and it will discolor and even bubble (ask me how I now - ;~}). It is extremely unpleasant to work with, at least for me, it is.

I have always assumed Guild's reasoning behind using a paper overlay was an attempt to maintain that same "shiny black headstock" look without the shrinkage problems associated with celluloid (pickguard material) and without the expense of a real piece of ebony. They obviously came up with a means/method of working with it, and it looks great once it is finished.
 

Christopher Cozad

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Indeed. Maybe it was the groovy '60s that made them even consider building a headstock with a giant plastic veneer. Would be interesting to have been a fly on the wall to know what made them do that.
Exactly.

My treasured Ibanez Artwood has a beautiful rosewood pickguard that was, indeed, applied prior to the finishing step. That's been stable without any problems since I bought it new as a teenager. Did Guild apply their pickguards before finishing on any of your axes, Chris? I was under the (possibly false) impression that Guild didn't do that.
Every last stinkin' one of 'em! LOL
 

Christopher Cozad

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... Did Guild apply their pickguards before finishing on any of your axes, Chris? I was under the (possibly false) impression that Guild didn't do that.
There are two (known to me, anyway) methods for applying those "under the finish" pickguards:
1. Paint a nasty adhesive onto the back of the pickguard and bond it directly to the wood.
2. Apply a thin coat of lacquer or lacquer thinner to the back of the pickguard and bond it directly to the wood.

Both methods end up melting the plastic into the wood. Then the lacquer gets sprayed over the whole thing.

You didn't ask, but I'll add that I have refinished several older Guilds, a few were my own, some I sold, and others have belonged to other players. When refinishing one of these guitars, I will scrape, never strip, off the lacquer. And yes, lacquer is most certainly sitting atop the pickguard. After the finish is removed, I found it to be hit and miss to be able to heat the pickguard and lift it off the surface of the top. In my experience, it will always bring some of the top with it, as the plastic has been melted into the wood fiber with a solvent as a means of bonding. {Luthier Tip: After losing enough battles, I learned to sand off the celluloid pickguard.}
 
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adorshki

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Both methods end up melting the plastic into the wood. Then the lacquer gets sprayed over the whole thing.
This kicks off a whole new line of discussion about whether or not pickguards open up, and if so, does replacing or removing one devalue the instrument?
(Ducks and covers)
:friendly_wink:
 

txbumper57

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This kicks off a whole new line of discussion about whether or not pickguards open up, and if so, does replacing or removing one devalue the instrument?
(Ducks and covers)
:friendly_wink:

Since you are in the stirring things up mood let me answer that question for you.

It all depends on which strings you use. LOL! :worked_till_5am:

TX
 
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adorshki

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It all depends on which strings you use. LOL! :worked_till_5am:
TX

EJ-16's on everything!!
Bass, electric, classical fusion or flat-top, EJ-16's are the one string to rule them all!
Preferably played in for 20 hours then boiled and dipped in liquid nitrogen to fix the metal fatigue at the optimum stage.
I would only caution against wasting them on guitars not wearing a Guild logo.
The faceplate composition, if present, has no effect on playability.

Just because it's your Monday, Al......
Did they move the Date Line while I was sleeping?
Isn't it Monday everywhere east of the line right now?
 
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davismanLV

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Did they move the Date Line while I was sleeping?
Isn't it Monday everywhere east of the line right now?
It's a Service Industry thing, Al. Hotels, restaurants, places like that. Weekends are very busy times and hardly anyone gets them off so, it becomes a thing. We all talk about MY Monday or MY Friday because they're different for everyone. I'll go to Happy Hour this afternoon and it will be SOMEONE'S Friday. So, that's my explanation. Most of the world works M-F so, it's different for you.
 

Quantum Strummer

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In my retirement I've found I like weekdays best. Especially Mondays & Tuesdays. I can get to all the places I want/need to go with less mid-day traffic hassle, and my fav coffee houses (like the one I'm in now) are less crowded so my fav seating spots are usually open.

-Dave-
 
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