Equating $$ to sound and playability

Antney

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I was reading a thread over in AGF and the OP said his instrument "played well above its ($500) price tag. That puzzles me. Perhaps all $500 instruments should play to that level. I think the quality that has been coming out of the Far East has raised the standard. If I were in the market now I'd be giving these imports a serious look. After all, tone comes from the hand.
 

davismanLV

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The hand the plays it, or the hand that makes it? I think it's a bit more complex than that. Although the quality coming from the Asian market has definitely stepped up its game, I think you might find some disagreement that it's comparable to Made In USA guitars. But let's see what everyone says......
 

adorshki

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I was reading a thread over in AGF and the OP said his instrument "played well above its ($500) price tag. That puzzles me.
It's the AGF, whaddaya expect?.
Exactly the kind of comment moderators let get by over there.
I imagine the thread fizzled out with barely a hiss of water on a campfire or relevant veer.
:glee:

After all, tone comes from the hand.
Yep, lot of support for that fact around here.
Still, a good hand can make a good guitar sound glorious, beyond the capabilities of a merely mediocre one.
What's really frustrating is that the price of quality goes up in an exponential ratio to the actual amount of increase in same.
(Thanks to Tom DavismanLV for originally giving voice to that theorem here)
 

bluesypicky

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You're welcome. I'm, on occasion, useful.......
That's very good Tom. Just try to show a bit more sophistication, and squeeze a French word here and there in sentences.
It will help validate your participating board member status. Mkay?

LMAO
 

Antney

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Although the quality coming from the Asian market has definitely stepped up its game, I think you might find some disagreement that it's comparable to Made In USA guitars..

Every guitar is unique. I played a $264 Alvarez j80 maple jumbo that was hands down (to my ears and hands) the best guitar I've ever played. Shoulda bought it but I'm a one guitar player. I am continually amazed at how vanilla many martins (is the m supposed to be capitalized) sound.
 

adorshki

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Every guitar is unique. I played a $264 Alvarez j80 maple jumbo that was hands down (to my ears and hands) the best guitar I've ever played. Shoulda bought it but I'm a one guitar player. I am continually amazed at how vanilla many martins (is the m supposed to be capitalized) sound.

Is that a model?
The Martin Vanille?
Do they have this much fun over on the AGF?
 

GAD

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While it's tempting to try and quantify "quality", that's easier said than done. I've played a lot of guitars in my time, and I would absolutely assume that a $500 guitars - especially an acoustic - to be inferior to a $2000 guitar of the same type. I would probably not always be correct, though.

The problem is that I'm a seasoned player who has 40 years of experience knowing how a guitar should sound, feel, and play. Because of that, I can usually tell a $500 guitar from a $2000 guitar with my eyes closed. My daughter, who has been playing for maybe a year or two, absolutely cannot tell the difference. For her, there is no benefit to spending big money on a guitar. I've tried experiments and had her play multiple and she has never gravitated towards the nicer guitars because the benefits are so far beyond her.

But here's the rub - as Tom pointed out, things are different than they used to be. When I was a kid, playing a "cheap" guitar would often result in endless frustration due to an instrument that couldn't stay set up or even in tune. These days I bought her a used Takamini acoustic for $500 (probably $800 new) that is mind-blowingly good, comes with electronics and even has a tuner built in. That guitar is amazing for the price, and without the electronics it would probably be $500 new. Can I tell that it's not a $2000 guitar? Absolutely. Can she? No.

That, IMO, is the big deal today. Now, where things get dicey is when the price goes up a bit on those import guitars, and suddenly when you get into the $1,000 range, the differences between them and a $2,000 are far less obvious and probably get into the bling more than the playability and timbre.

What's worse is that when I went hunting for a $3,000 Taylor, I played literally hundreds of them until I found the one. Even better, it was a $2,000 model in a sea of $3,000+ guitars.

Price isn't everything. Every guitar is different. Play them all and buy the one that sings to you.
 

Neal

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Just one man's opinion, but most of my cheaper guitars ( including 2 Chinese Guilds) are sold and gone, while only American guitars remain.

And it is not due to patriotism.
 

Cougar

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....the OP said his instrument "played well above its ($500) price tag. That puzzles me. Perhaps all $500 instruments should play to that level. I think the quality that has been coming out of the Far East has raised the standard. If I were in the market now I'd be giving these imports a serious look. After all, tone comes from the hand.

Well, music comes from the hand. Skill and genius come from the hand (and yeah, flubs). Tone comes more from the guitar, not to mention the pick, the fingers, the teeth, what have you. I'm in fair agreement with you though, Antney. I have several Far East made guitars, China, Indonesia, and I'm very happy with them. I did have a nice $500 Takamine 12, but after my first recording, I was inspired to get a more, uh, substantial 12-string. Why not look into the best? Got a great deal on a JF30-12. It's quite a bit better than the $500 Takamine, which I sold.

But as you say, the Far East has been upping its game, actually for years now. I look at the $500 Guild F-2512E Maple and figure it's probably the best deal on the planet.

And by the way, welcome to the Guild boards, as you seem somewhat new, perhaps. :tiger:

What's really frustrating is that the price of quality goes up in an exponential ratio to the actual amount of increase in same.
(Thanks to Tom DavismanLV for originally giving voice to that theorem here)

A theory backed up by the data. That's the way we like it! But what's the exponent? 1.4? 1.9? 2.18? :unsure:

I played a $264 Alvarez j80 maple jumbo that was hands down (to my ears and hands) the best guitar I've ever played. Shoulda bought it but I'm a one guitar player.

Alvarez are pretty cheap, alright, but yeah, you can expect some pretty big sound out of a good maple jumbo. I search on Alvarez-Yairi on occasion. Made by Yairi with just a distribution deal with Alvarez. He makes good ones.
 

adorshki

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Now, where things get dicey is when the price goes up a bit on those import guitars, and suddenly when you get into the $1,000 range, the differences between them and a $2,000 are far less obvious and probably get into the bling more than the playability and timbre.
You reminded me, I should have said "After a certain point, the increase in quality becomes progressively smaller for every increase in dollar price".
I do think it's probably a lot more applicable to acoustics than electrics though, where construction and materials quality have a greater impact on final sound output.
For example, how much better could an NH F50 have sounded without getting into Huss & Dalton price territory?
And would it actually be "worth it"?
Probably only to a very narrow range of customers who can both hear AND afford it (and justify it), or else to someone who's actually making a speculative investment in a potential collector's item.

Price isn't everything. Every guitar is different. Play them all and buy the one that sings to you.
Heck in my case I went with the D25 I went with the one I knew I could get the best from because of the playability.
I'd already figured out tone is in the technique, and I just wanted to clear the price hurdle to get an American made guitar.
But I got a real pleasant surprise when it actually opened up.
Wouldn'ta believed in the whole phenomenon if it hadn't actually happened to me.
 

adorshki

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A theory backed up by the data. That's the way we like it! But what's the exponent? 1.4? 1.9? 2.18? :unsure:
Those would be "constants". It's more like: Spend an extra $500 on a $1000 axe, maybe get a 25% bonus on materials and sound quality.
Spend another $500 and get maybe another 10%.
Spend another $500 and maybe get another 5%
So compared to a $1000.00 axe, the $2500 axe only gives you another 40% of quality for 2-1/2 times the price.
I just pulled those figures out of the air to illustrate the concept.
But like Tom originally meant, it really gets cost-prohibitive when you get to the $5,000.00 bracket.
Another $1000.00's only likely to get you another 5% of enhanced quality, maybe?
Another $200.00's not even likely to be perceivable.
Which brings us to another point: For the kinds of gutars we're talking about, Asian imports under $1000 or even $500, they're not after that high end in any case.
They're just tying to be competetive by quality in a saturated market, at the price point where most purchases are made, that's far more sophisticated than it was even 20 years ago.
It's why Fender said early on in New Hartford era that they didn't even want to try to play in that market and be just another guitar on a wall in Guitar Center. They were trying to upscale the brand itself.
But they knew they had to back up the price with concommitant quality.
Just seems like the money clock ran out before they could reach the profitable stage.
 

GAD

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Those would be "constants". It's more like: Spend an extra $500 on a $1000 axe, maybe get a 25% bonus on materials and sound quality.
Spend another $500 and get maybe another 10%.
Spend another $500 and maybe get another 5%
So compared to a $1000.00 axe, the $2500 axe only gives you another 40% of quality for 2-1/2 times the price.
I just pulled those figures out of the air to illustrate the concept.
But like Tom originally meant, it really gets cost-prohibitive when you get to the $5,000.00 bracket.
Another $1000.00's only likely to get you another 5% of enhanced quality, maybe?
Another $200.00's not even likely to be perceivable.
Which brings us to another point: For the kinds of gutars we're talking about, Asian imports under $1000 or even $500, they're not after that high end in any case.
They're just tying to be competetive by quality in a saturated market, at the price point where most purchases are made, that's far more sophisticated than it was even 20 years ago.
It's why Fender said early on in New Hartford era that they didn't even want to try to play in that market and be just another guitar on a wall in Guitar Center. They were trying to upscale the brand itself.
But they knew they had to back up the price with concommitant quality.
Just seems like the money clock ran out before they could reach the profitable stage.

The law of diminishing returns.
 
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