D55 top finish cracks

jim777

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I am looking at replacing the D55 I sold back in '08, and the D55's I see on reverb seem to fall into 3 categories - either old and not terribly well cared for, new and prohibitively expensive, or cheaper with a number of cracks in the top's finish. The one I had, which I got "new" in '04 also had a number of cracks, but was sold as a factory second because of that. (I didn't know it was a 2nd at the time, I found out afterwards about the new serial number sticker). So it seems like a lot of the D55's of the '00's may have had or will have that issue.

So, my question is, is that a common thing, or uncommon? My years on electric have taught me well that when you see a finish crack in the neck pocket it IS to the wood, and all the "just in the finish, not in the wood" comments in sale posts are nonsense. I don't think this is the case with a lot of acoustic spruce tops, but I do wonder if all the cracks in finishes I see that are clearly not checking are due to poor humidity and care on the owners side or something else. Maybe a curing issue at the factory?

Don't get me wrong, I won't let a few finish cracks deter me from buying one and I may well end up with a guitar that is gorgeous except for a few in the top coat, I just wanted to know what you all think about something that strikes me as fairly common on at least this particular model.


this was my '04
hairlines.JPG


jim
 

wileypickett

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Hey Jim,

Generally speaking, if the cracks do not run in the same direction as the grain of the wood, the cracks are to the finish.

In the photo you posted, those cracks appear to me to be checking cracks in the finish, often caused by sudden changes in temperature, like taking a guitar from a cold environment to a warm one and taking it right out of the case without letting it acclimatize first.

Glenn
 

jim777

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Agreed that it looks like the guitar was not treated well by an owner, but it came new from the factory like that; thus my concern with 'newer than '00' D55s. You see those types of cracks in D55 sale ads often.
 

wileypickett

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Finish checking can sometimes be caused by stress or a blow. Not severe enough to crack the wood, but enough to crack the finish. Maybe something like that happened to yours before it left the factory and that's why it was sold as factory second?

Some people hate 'em, but I don't worry about cracks in the finish at all if a guitar I'm considering buying sounds and plays well. If I'd let that criteria deter me, I'd have missed out on what are currently my three favorite Guilds. My DV72, my D66 and my D55 all have finish checking.
 

jim777

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Yeah, it's difficult to complain if the end result is simply a lower price I suppose :) I am selling my one and only motorcycle to fund the D55, so I am definitely looking forward to getting one. Going to go sunburst this time I think
 

Neal

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Finish cracks like the one in the photo above suggest a cold-to-warm transition that was too fast. Like below freezing to room temperature within seconds to minutes. The lacquer expands in the heated environment at a different rate than the wood does, and cracks like glass.

I wouldn't think that a D-55 would be any more succeptible than any other nitrocelulose lacquer-finished guitar, an I also don't think when or where it was made really matters all that much.

I have owned a number of post-2000 Guilds and none have/had any finish checking. I make sure to keep them temperature- and humidity-controlled.
 

adorshki

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I wouldn't think that a D-55 would be any more succeptible than any other nitrocelulose lacquer-finished guitar, an I also don't think when or where it was made really matters all that much.
I agree, it's not like they use a different lacquer than the rest of production, at least I've never seen that said.
There were some known finishing problems in Corona but not limited to any one model.
In fact an '04 D55 would be a Corona.
As a final observation it might also be that a high percentage of the offerings you see are being offered because of a cosmetic defect.
New D55 buyers are likely to have bought 'em for keeps, production numbers are comparatively low (compared to overall Guild production at any plant), and what's being offered might be the less desirable examples.
And/or old enough to have experienced the causes of finish checking.
 

davismanLV

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I'm with Neal and Al as far as the reasons for finish checking and the incidences of such. D55's are a bit elusive right now as they haven't been made for a few years and inventory is low to almost non-existent. And prime examples carry a significant price tag. I've not seen rampant finish checking on D55's or any other model. Maybe in the lower price ranges, that's what you'll experience because that's one reason for a lowered price. Guild in Oxnard is starting production of the new D55's and they should be on the market soon. Maybe that will have some effect on the prices. Possibly not. I kinda have an idea that it's more prevalent on the East coast because of more severe temps, but that may just be an assumption on my part. Shipping in winter is definitely risky. I've seen some beautiful D55's lately, sunburst and NT's that are beautiful and unflawed. They're not cheap, but they're prime examples. :encouragement:
 

CosmicArkie

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Another thought on the finish cracking of the more recent (post 1990 or so) acoustics...

There is a _significantly_ thicker coating on my 2000 DCE-5 than on my 1958 CE-100. To the point that I had inquired some time back as to whether the DCE-5 was really lacquered because it really looked like it was poly. Heavier coating = more likely to react unfavorably to changes in environment.
 

adorshki

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Another thought on the finish cracking of the more recent (post 1990 or so) acoustics...

There is a _significantly_ thicker coating on my 2000 DCE-5 than on my 1958 CE-100. To the point that I had inquired some time back as to whether the DCE-5 was really lacquered because it really looked like it was poly. Heavier coating = more likely to react unfavorably to changes in environment.
Now that's interesting.
I had the same question about my Corona D40 for a few years, so thick and smooth wondered if it could actually be poly.
My 2 Westerlys were significantly thinner, already showing shrinkage into the grain by the time they were 5 years old, the D40's only just barely starting to show it now.
 

CosmicArkie

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Yup yup yup...

The true lacquer. in my experience, reacts entirely differently. Checking/shrinking parallel to the grain for example and being mostly uniform. This coating bears no resemblance to lacquer taking off at any and all angles. The pic above does suggest stress on the neck, but the cracks on mine were in all directions on the top and looked more like shattered glass.

Upon further review in my growing ever more infertile mind, another possibility might be acrylic lacquer. Kinda recall when that stuff came out in the auto industry it was generally applied more heavily than nitro and it might explain the plastic like cracking.

Where is Hans?
 
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nrand

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Yup yup yup...

The true lacquer. in my experience, reacts entirely differently. Checking/shrinking parallel to the grain for example and being mostly uniform. This coating bears no resemblance to lacquer taking off at any and all angles. The pic above does suggest stress on the neck, but the cracks on mine were in all directions on the top and looked more like shattered glass.

Upon further review in my growing ever more infertile mind, another possibility might be acrylic lacquer. Kinda recall when that stuff came out in the auto industry it was generally applied more heavily than nitro and it might explain the plastic like cracking.

Where is Hans?

I have been watching this thread and have a few questions as well. My Tacoma D55 from 2005 also has what appears to be very heavy lacquer most evident in chips along the binding. I have read from a few others that other Tacoma built units experienced this same issue. Given 2005 was the first year for Tacoma, I wonder if they were still using the same formulas as Corona did.
 

GardMan

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...another possibility might be acrylic lacquer...
It was my understanding that all American-made Guild acoustics, from New York thru New Hartford, were finished with nitrocellulose (certainly the high gloss, but I thought even the satin and hand-rubbed finishes). I have never heard anything to the contrary...
 

adorshki

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The true lacquer. in my experience, reacts entirely differently. Checking/shrinking parallel to the grain for example and being mostly uniform. This coating bears no resemblance to lacquer taking off at any and all angles. The pic above does suggest stress on the neck, but the cracks on mine were in all directions on the top and looked more like shattered glass.
We recently had input from a professional finisher, in a thread about finishes, that the formulas for NCL itself have changed over the years.
I'm assuming the older types contained more "solids" and acted more like glass under pressure/stress/thermal shock, thus the "shattered" appearance.
We have made a distinction between "age shrinkage" (sinking into the grain) and actual stress checking in the past.
I've seen a Corona D40 (here) with a finish check that was long and arced across the top grain, owner got it secondgdhand, thought it may have been stress induced.

Upon further review in my growing ever more infertile mind, another possibility might be acrylic lacquer. Kinda recall when that stuff came out in the auto industry it was generally applied more heavily than nitro and it might explain the plastic like cracking.

Nope.
Like Gardman said, American built acoustics were NCL all the time**, even in the HR finishes, which were a gel instead of a spray-on liquid.
"Satin" just doesn't get buffed out to a gloss.
Also the Tacoma lit and marketing materials still spec'd NCL lacquer (as did New Hartford).
**The one exception I can recall is Hans mentioning one of the very low-production "DS46/48" series having poly finish from the late '80s.
Those guitars actually had a "faux" soundhole and were intended for strictly amplified play:
ds48ce.jpg

Where is Hans?
I'm guessing that nothing posted needs correction, but it's also possible the questions about Corona/Tacoma are still to be answered in the 2nd volume of "the book".
I have been watching this thread and have a few questions as well. My Tacoma D55 from 2005 also has what appears to be very heavy lacquer most evident in chips along the binding. I have read from a few others that other Tacoma built units experienced this same issue. Given 2005 was the first year for Tacoma, I wonder if they were still using the same formulas as Corona did.
I would consider that to be an extremely reasonable deduction, since Guild was basically transplanted into the existing Tacoma facility and they operated side-by-side to the end.
As mentioned before I don't know if they moved the new-in-Corona spray booth up there, but if not (as I suspect), that could be one factor.
Whether they (or supplier) changed formula is still unknown.
 
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Taylor Martin Guild

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I bought my 2005 D-55 used in 2010.
The guitar was almost unplayed at the time.
The pick guard plastic protector sheet was still on it.
The strings were the original Elixirs.

The back of the neck of the guitar felt soft, like the lacquer wasn't fully cured yet.
It stayed that way for a couple of years before it started to feel like it was getting hard and no longer sticky.

This makes me wonder if Guild finishes from that era were prone to being soft and taking a long time to cure.
I never felt like the finish was thick but that could be a reason that it took so long to harden.
 

adorshki

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bought my 2005 D-55 used in 2010.
The guitar was almost unplayed at the time.
The pick guard plastic protector sheet was still on it.
The strings were the original Elixirs.
Elixirs were never original on Guild.
They were still spec'ing L350 lights at that time.
I'm guessing the softening was due to mistteatment, like acids/salts present in skin oils or exposure to something that outgassed solvents in the case, like a vinyl strap.

The back of the neck of the guitar felt soft, like the lacquer wasn't fully cured yet.
It stayed that way for a couple of years before it started to feel like it was getting hard and no longer sticky.
Again that corresponds to a finish that was softened somehow and then hardened again.
I doubt even an incompletely cured finish would stay that way for 5 years. ('05-'10 when you got it)
I had a similar problem on top of my D25 where my sweaty forearm rested on it for about 1000 hours over about 5 years.
I wan't conscientious about wiping it down after playing, never realizing at the time it would damage the finish.

This makes me wonder if Guild finishes from that era were prone to being soft and taking a long time to cure.
I never felt like the finish was thick but that could be a reason that it took so long to harden.
OP Says he sees more reports of chipping than anything else, that's a result of a brittle, not a soft finish.
 
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