Heel Question

Rich Cohen

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I can't figure out why the heel of my F-48 is bigger and wider than the heel of my F-212xl. Essentially, the two are very similar guitars. My F-48 is from 1974, the F-212xl from 1975. Take a look at the pics. In the comparison pic, the F-48 is on the left.
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txbumper57

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It could be different heel shapes from different builds as the 12 string has a different Build design all together than a 6 string to counter the heavier tension of 12 strings. It could also be the result of a Neck reset. Has the F212XL had a Neck Reset performed on it? When a Neck reset is performed, the neck is in laymen's terms tilted back to achieve the proper neck angle. By doing this they have to shave the bottom of the heel where it meets the body and then glue it back. In this process the material that has been shaved off the bottom of the heel not only comes off of the bottom of the heel but due to the angle itself also narrows the width of the heel in a tapered fashion causing the heel to look like it does on your F212XL when the neck reset is finished. Hope this helps!

TX
 
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Rich Cohen

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Thanks for your response. Yes, the 212xl has recently had a neck reset. Though there is no evidence that the size/shape of the neck where it joins the body has changed. I should think it would show in some way on the surface of the body near the neck.
 

JohnW63

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I don't think a neck reset changed the heal. You can clearly see that the heal lines are straight on the F48 and tapers noticeably on the 212XL from the fretboard to the back of the guitar. I think it was just a design difference. My much later F47 has a heal much more like the 212xl.
 

txbumper57

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Thanks for your response. Yes, the 212xl has recently had a neck reset. Though there is no evidence that the size/shape of the neck where it joins the body has changed. I should think it would show in some way on the surface of the body near the neck.

If the neck reset was done properly by a skilled luthier you shouldn't be able to see any finish lines where the neck used to be. Looks like yours was done well by someone who knew what they were doing. No matter what, if your neck has been reset the heel has been altered from it's original state even if only in a very small amount.


TX
 

chazmo

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I have to see the pictures when I get online from the home office later (can't from Dunkin Donuts because they block 'em), but I think '75-ish was an era when Guild started using padauk (rather than mahogany) for their high-end guitar necks and perhaps they changed the heel design when they did that (even if these models were unaffected). I'm just guessing here, but wanted to mention it. That said, 12-string necks might are quite different than 6-string necks, so it doesn't surprise me that the heel would look different. It is a bit surprising, though, that the heel would be smaller or thinner on the 12-string than the 6-string.
 

Rich Cohen

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I have to see the pictures when I get online from the home office later (can't from Dunkin Donuts because they block 'em), but I think '75-ish was an era when Guild started using padauk (rather than mahogany) for their high-end guitar necks and perhaps they changed the heel design when they did that (even if these models were unaffected). I'm just guessing here, but wanted to mention it. That said, 12-string necks might are quite different than 6-string necks, so it doesn't surprise me that the heel would look different. It is a bit surprising, though, that the heel would be smaller or thinner on the 12-string than the 6-string.

Thanks Chazmo. Don't drink too much coffee!:teapot:
 

txbumper57

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One obvious thing that didn't occur to me last night Rich is that your F212XL has Dual Truss Rods in the neck and your F48 only has a single truss rod. The difference in neck design between the two could be the reason for the more rounded heel on the F212 being that is has to be stronger for the extra tension. Amazing what your mind can come up with when you are not tired, LOL!

TX
 

Rich Cohen

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On another note TX, how do you like your G-41? When I was contemplating getting my F-212xl, I almost went for a G-41 instead.
 

Christopher Cozad

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I can't figure out why the heel of my F-48 is bigger and wider than the heel of my F-212xl...
Rich,

To my knowledge, all of the Guild 12 strings have the narrow, tapered neck heel. In my experience, (nearly) all of Guild 6 string guitars I have owned or played have the wider, paddle neck heel. The one exception (in my case) is the GF-60 which is a 6 string with a narrow neck heel.
 

txbumper57

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On another note TX, how do you like your G-41? When I was contemplating getting my F-212xl, I almost went for a G-41 instead.

The G41 is a Great Guitar Rich. Some people don't like the extended 26.25" scale length but I am used to it as my F612 has the same longer scale. There is something to be said for the Dreadnought shape in a 17" Jumbo size. It has a different tone to it than an actual 17" regular Jumbo shaped Guild. It retains the Punch of a Dread but has the balance of a Jumbo. It is very rich and warm with tons of Resonance for a Hog backed guitar and it doesn't take much to get it singing. If you get the chance to play one I highly recommend it. I have been thinking for awhile about down sizing my collection so if I decide to cut loose of mine I will be sure to let you know.

TX
 

txbumper57

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Rich,

To my knowledge, all of the Guild 12 strings have the narrow, tapered neck heel. In my experience, (nearly) all of Guild 6 string guitars I have owned or played have the wider, paddle neck heel. The one exception (in my case) is the GF-60 which is a 6 string with a narrow neck heel.

I just looked in my guitar room as I have 3 of my New Hartford made Jumbo 6 strings out on stands and I was really surprised when I looked at the neck heels. My 2012 F50, 2013 F50R, and 2013 Custom Shop Orpheum Jumbo all have the same rounded Tapered neck heel like Rich's F212XL instead of the more common flatter neck heel. I wonder when Guild made the transition on the 6 string Jumbos to the more rounded version? I honestly hadn't even noticed it in the 4 years since I bought my F50R new.

TX
 

Christopher Cozad

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...I wonder when Guild made the transition on the 6 string Jumbos to the more rounded version?...
Great question.

I would also love to hear the reasoning behind the two designs, especially regarding the time/era when they were used simultaneously. In other words, why use the narrow tapered heel on those early 12 strings and the un-tapered on the 6's? Why not reverse them? Or only use one or the other? Enquiring minds want to know. ;~}
 

txbumper57

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Great question.

I would also love to hear the reasoning behind the two designs, especially regarding the time/era when they were used simultaneously. In other words, why use the narrow tapered heel on those early 12 strings and the un-tapered on the 6's? Why not reverse them? Or only use one or the other? Enquiring minds want to know. ;~}

My 1993 JF100 has the squared off heel. I am wondering if the change didn't occur during Tacoma Production when they went to the Graphite reinforced Single truss rod necks on the 12 strings. The only difference in appearance of necks on my 2013 F50R and my 2014 F512 is the extra width at the nut on the 12 string. The heels look like the same. Maybe when they made the switch to the single truss rod 12 strings at Tacoma they just standardized the necks they used for the jumbos instead of having to cut two different necks. Just a suggestion.

TX
 

JohnW63

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I suspect that the wider profile on the heel was determined to not be necessary, as the bulk of torque on the neck is not a side to side motion, that a wider foot would brace against, but a pull toward the strings, that the dove tail is fighting, so, they removed the unneeded wood for a slimmer, more traditional, look
 

bobouz

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Very interesting. Of the five Westerly six-strings I currently have:

- Three from the '70s have the wide heel profile.

- Two from the '90s have the narrow heel profile.

Does anyone have a six-string from the '70s with the narrow profile?
 
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