Incoming 1976 F-412 - question about machine heads

Epsilon

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Hi all - first post here, prompted by a new purchase!

I just purchased the F-412 pictured, which I believe dates to 1976. It's certainly seen a lot of action and has had a neck reset at some point, but I'm told by the (reputable) dealer that it's structurally sound and plays well. Original case too is a bonus!

My question is about the tuners, which appear to be Grovers. My guess is that these are replacements, as I believe the originals would be Guild branded and also gold, rather than silver. Is this correct or were some F412s equipped with Grovers as standard?

Long-time lurker here and very grateful for all the knowledge of forum members. I also have a 2011 New Hartford F47-R and a Hoboken 1959 X50 archtop.







 
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hansmoust

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My question is about the tuners, which appear to be Grovers. My guess is that these are replacements, as I believe the originals would be Guild branded and also gold, rather than silver. Is this correct or were some F412s equipped with Grovers as standard?


Hello Epsilon,

Welcome! If this guitar is indeed from 1976 I would expect it to have Schaller M-6 mini tuners. However, it's not impossible that the guitar was ordered with the Grover RotoMatics. If these are not the original tuners, then I would expect to see two small screwholes of the original Schaller tuners, which would probably not be hidden by the Grovers, even though they are a slightly bigger format.

The picture is not clear enough for me to see, so you need to check that yourself. As far as the Grover RotoMatics are concerned, they look gold to me in the photo, albeit with the gold worn off showing the nickel plating that was underneath the gold.

Edit: Is there a possibility that this guitar is a little older than stated? Can you give us the serial number?

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 
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Epsilon

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Thanks, hansmoust. I won't actually receive the guitar until Saturday so unable to check to serial number at this time. I've no reason to think that the shop got the date wrong, though I suppose it is possible. I'll check in once it's received! Out of interest, what makes you think it might be older?

Looking at the pictures more closely it does seem that they may have once been gold which has faded over the years. Originality is not a huge concern to be honest but nice to know either way!
 

chazmo

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Welcome aboard, Epsilon! That looks like a well-played example of the breed. Spectacular!! As Hans said, those are gold Grovers with the plating worn off. Very common, although perhaps not original.

I'm a little concerned about what I see with that picture of the neck from the back. It looks like separation, but could just be the picture. Looking forward to hearing what you have to say about it.

Also, the dots on the bridge could either be part of factory electronics (although I thought the put the hot dots in a different place, or could be a sign of something else non-original.

In any case, if you give Hans the serial number he can give you the details.
 

dbirchett

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Epsilon, Hans Moust, who is attempting to answer your question literally wrote the book on Guild Guitars. You ought to pick one up. https://www.amazon.com/Guild-Guitar-Book-Hans-Moust/dp/0634009664/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1483537157&sr=1-1&keywords=Guild+guitarsIt is considered the bible around here on all things Guild. We are anxiously awaiting volume 2 but Guild keeps changing so it will probably be out of date the moment it hits the shelves (which should provide for a volume 3).

Beautiful guitar and welcome to the forum.
 

Epsilon

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Welcome aboard, Epsilon! That looks like a well-played example of the breed. Spectacular!! As Hans said, those are gold Grovers with the plating worn off. Very common, although perhaps not original.

I'm a little concerned about what I see with that picture of the neck from the back. It looks like separation, but could just be the picture. Looking forward to hearing what you have to say about it.

Also, the dots on the bridge could either be part of factory electronics (although I thought the put the hot dots in a different place, or could be a sign of something else non-original.

In any case, if you give Hans the serial number he can give you the details.


Well played indeed! The person I spoke to over the phone in the shop suggested that this was a well-toured guitar. I'm hoping that the fact that it's been so well played is a positive reflection on the sound and playability.

I'm aware that the guitar has had a neck reset so I'm assuming the line where the neck meets the body is where the original finish was removed. If there's any separation in the neck I'll have no problem returning it. For the price I got it for, provided the guitar plays well and has no structural issues, I'll be happy!

Good spot on the dot markers on the bridge, which I hadn't picked up on. I've not seen them on other models so presumably non-original and I'll investigate further when it arrives. I'll also upload a bunch of pictures, including of the serial number.

Thanks to all for the warm welcome!
 

idealassets

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I hope everything checks out for you when you get the guitar. You may soon find out from the guitar historians out and around that the coolness factor of the maple neck rates quite high. Might anyone know why it was changed to mahogany in later years? Also I have seen in my own hands versions of Paduk or Pear wood on the necks, for the main neck, or used for the center strip.

I have owned a few older F412's going back to 1981, when I was doing guitar repair and re-sale, but today it is mostly not profitable.

Guitar folks often felt on the older Guild guitars that the tuners were "too heavy" and would "pull the neck of the guitar downward". It has also been pointed out to me that "all Guild guitars are too heavy". But its all just a matter of what someone likes.

One thing for certain is that some players don't want to merely play the same instrument as the legions of players out there with Takamine, Seagull, etc. etc. that are used just about everywhere you go.

I like the modern day butter bean tuners (beginning 2008), however my favorite older tuners were the large Grover's, then the standard Grover & Schaller, with my least favorite being the Grover mini that were used during the JF65-12 period (1984-1997, or therabouts). Although really its all good since I have liked playing all the varieties at some time.

At any rate the older F412 & 512 are liked by a lot folks, and there are still gawkers and admirers out there that always want to know something about them.
 
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walrus

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Nice! Welcome! Would love to see photos of the '59 X-50!

walrus
 

idealassets

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-Also if your F412 becomes a "keeper" for you and if the most correct tuners can be determined from the guitar serial number many varieties of the tuners are still available new from the manufacturer, and can be ordered from the various guitar or luthier suppliers. I still have a spare set of standard gold Grover's since I have replaced a number of them on guitars that I repaired.

However I would never do something that would leave bare screw holes exposed on the back of the headstock. And for that matter in any endeavor whether it be guitar, auto, or antique restoration I felt it was OK to accept a previous owner's modification if it worked out just fine that way.
 

Rich Cohen

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Welcome from all of us! I have a '13 F-412 (New Hartford) and can't get my hands on it enough. The lows, mids and highs are equally resounding and sustaining. Projection into an audience is awesome even without a mike. Sounds like an orchestra, or a choir of angels...as some say.
 

hansmoust

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I won't actually receive the guitar until Saturday so unable to check to serial number at this time. I've no reason to think that the shop got the date wrong, though I suppose it is possible. I'll check in once it's received! Out of interest, what makes you think it might be older?

Well, I could be wrong, but I'm used to looking at specs and not so much at serial numbers. Specs can be misleading though, because parts can be replaced. The bridge looks like a replacement, but from the rest of the guitar I would say it's probably more like a 1973-model. It's more like a gut feeling!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 
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Epsilon

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Update! Guitar just arrived and it has a few surprises.

Firstly, while advertised as a 1976, the serial number in the 83,000s puts it as a 1973. Exactly as you suggested Hans! Very impressed with your perception there.

The Grover tuners do not appear to be concealing any holes from previous tuners, and are indeed gold. Possibly originals after all?

The neck reset could probably have been improved in terms of aesthetic outcome, but the neck joint is super stable with no movement - so no worries there.

Finally - and again not something that was advertised - I noticed that it came equipped with an input jack where the bottom strap holder would be. Plugged it in and sure enough it has a piezo pickup installed. Probably quite an old one but seems to work fine! This would also explain the dots on the bridge which were presumably drilled for pickup installation.

On to the important stuff. In terms of sound it is an absolute cannon. After tuning up I played an open chord and my wife just said "wow", which pretty much sums it up. Enormous volume and depth. Obviously very bright given all the maple and pretty much the polar opposite of my cedar/rosewood Breedlove 12 string which has a more balanced, warm and mellow tone. Nice to have different guitars for different occasions of course!

Playability is excellent, low action and great intonation. The neck is pretty chunky but very comfortable. Overall I can see this guitar being a keeper.

I'll try and get some pictures uploaded later, but my priority now is to play it!

Thanks to everyone for the welcome and advice so far.
 

Christopher Cozad

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Update! ... After tuning up I played an open chord and my wife just said "wow", which pretty much sums it up.
Congratulations on your acquisition! Though common, it never grows old to hear that 'wow' response to a Guild 12 string. What a great start to the new year!
 

GardMan

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Finally - and again not something that was advertised - I noticed that it came equipped with an input jack where the bottom strap holder would be. Plugged it in and sure enough it has a piezo pickup installed. Probably quite an old one but seems to work fine! This would also explain the dots on the bridge which were presumably drilled for pickup installation.
The pearl dots on the bridge might be concealing "Hot dot" pickups. I know Guild used them for a while, but don't remember the era... 70s I think. IS there a paper label in the visible soundhole? Does the model number end with an E (designating factory electronics)?
 
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