Bummer guitar at Christmas time

I would like an opinion for those who might have one, not sure what response I would get on other sites, so I'm posting it here.

I bought off ebay what I have been wanting for a long time. The seller has 1700 positive feedbacks, with 2 recent neutral, so I pulled the trigger to get a 2014 Martin OM28E "Retro" model, with factory installed Fishman pickup, with no return offered. I also offer no return on my guitars, but know full well that ebay will force a return if I did not describe my guitars accurately.

Overall the guitar was in worse shape than what I saw the 11 images, with nicks and dents all over for just a 2 year old guitar. But the seller totally hid from his images anything showing the factory pickup, which has 2 knobs drilled through the side and also a 7/8" diameter see through tuner port drilled through. In the endpin location is a large plastic cover that has been routered into the bottom side of the guitar about 1" wide and all the way across from binding to binding. This apparently pops out, with the endpin jack coming out, to get at something in there, maybe the 9v battery.

I hate getting into fights and going to ebay resolution, but I put this on my credit card "just in case".

Would anyone agree with me that all this tonewood chopped out of a guitar, and not shown in the listing, makes these items intrusive into the "acoustic" aspect of this guitar? Note that all my other guitars have only the piazzo pickup with no other holes drilled- which are in good demand if the time comes to sell. I'm concerned that this guitar may be undesireable if I give it an honest listing when I go to re-sell, additionally I am disappointed with the entire guitar as-is.

Thank you,
Craig

If he misrepresented the guitar, was selective in choosing the pictures, and didn't mention the nicks and dents, he would be getting it back. End of discussion. I would be on the phone to ebay right now. You have to put up a fight or you will be stuck with this gem that you clearly dislike and be out the $$$.


Tom

Have you broached this with the seller yet? if he has all that positive feedback he didn't get it (probably) by being an unreasonable seller. Start there and if he won't step up, I'd say you have a good argument for a Ebay resolution in your favor. Good luck.

richardp69 said:

Have you broached this with the seller yet? if he has all that positive feedback he didn't get it (probably) by being an unreasonable seller. Start there and if he won't step up, I'd say you have a good argument for a Ebay resolution in your favor. Good luck.

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This seller has 2 neutral in the last 12 months, 2 more than I have.

When I inquired from the original ebay posting, the seller was upbeat about his ability to sell guitars. It gets messy when I did ask questions before I bought it, but you might not ask the right questions when you think you have seen everything in 11 pictures. I am surprised that the Martin factory did this pickup installation in a 1930's "retro" model guitar. I have especially never before seen a plastic panel that snaps open with the endpin jack in it like this.

Regardless I put it on my credit card, and have that protection. I will have to have a few firm conversations, and then let the seller know after its on the way back, when I will inform him of the unsavory status of the entire mess.

I have gotten just a few decent buys on ebay- for items that normally can't be located anywhere else, but have learned that I really enjoy the experience a lot more when I pick a guitar from a shop, pay around MAP price in person, and pay the state sales tax. There are just a few dealers left within 100 miles in MI that might have something good in the rack.

Are these "defects", possibly alterations that were performed by the seller? Or are they standard features on that model?

geoguy said:

Are these "defects", possibly alterations that were performed by the seller? Or are they standard features on that model?

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From what I can see, they're standard features on that model (here's a sold Reverb listing that shows them) and also a Sweetwater listing.

What are not standard features are the nicks and dents Idealassets talks about.

gjmalcyon said:

From what I can see, they're standard features on that model (here's a sold Reverb listing that shows them) and also a Sweetwater listing.

What are not standard features are the nicks and dents Idealassets talks about.

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Nice Find on the Sweetwater Ad gjmalcyon! If you watch the Sweetwater Demo Video of the OM28E, the end pin routing and cover in question can be seen at the 4:10 mark of the video. Looks like that pickup system was factory on that model and the only thing not described in the Ebay Purchase would be the dents and dings like you mentioned. It is a good sounding guitar in the Demo Video but I think the argument that the pickup was a special order and reason for the return would be hard to make with Ebay. The dents and the dings not being described in the Ebay Ad should be enough for a return in this situation.

TX

I seriously doubt you will win this particular battle. And stopping payment on the credit card, if that's your plan, will only prolong the agony.. Having no way to review the particular ad it would be hard to judge "nicks and dents". wish you luck

As noted, it seems like part of the issue is a misunderstanding about the factory specs of a Martin Retro model. Specifically the electronics as described seem to be an unmodified factory installation. That could have been resolved with some pre-sale research. The cosmetics might be grounds for a complaint but it would hinge on exactly how it was described in the ad. Not sure whether this is a fight worth having or not.

idealassets said:

I am surprised that the Martin factory did this pickup installation in a 1930's "retro" model guitar. I have especially never before seen a plastic panel that snaps open with the endpin jack in it like this.

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That's pretty much standard on the Retro series from Martin:

https://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/retro-series/om-28e-retro/

Remember that in the Martin Retro series, the Retro does not mean it is built like older style guitars. It means you can use the built-in electronics to dial in a retro tone.

Jim

jwsamuel said:

Remember that in the Martin Retro series, the Retro does not mean it is built like older style guitars.
It means you can use the built-in electronics to dial in a retro tone.

Jim

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While I'm sympathetic to Ideal's frustration, that just made me laugh out loud.
Like, in the future, we'll have cars that give you the illusion that you're still in control...

From the "third" Sweetwater video I could be sold, except the sound is obviously electrified. I don't "get" the Aura...make your acoustic guitar sound like something else? Nahhh. I would have to say I think the install of the controls tasteful and minimal. Like the idea of the low oval neck. But nicks and scratches would be a deal-killer for me. Would really have to read the prose of the description to see if the real condition was hidden.

jwsamuel said:

Remember that in the Martin Retro series, the Retro does not mean it is built like older style guitars. It means you can use the built-in electronics to dial in a retro tone.

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I used to work with a guitar collector. I could not convince him to include Guilds but he loved his Martins. He talked about the Retro series a lot because he had one and it emulated vintage instrument that was very close to one in his collection. He said that as an acoustic instrument the Retro sucked. It was better than no guitar but the sound compared to any one of a number of $500 entry level guitars. But when you plugged it in, tweaked the amp/PA and listened to the amplified sound it nailed the sound of the vintage instrument well mic'd.

He noted that from the player's vantage point, if you didn't have a monitor speaker or earphones you did not get the benefit of the vintage sound. He decided it was for a niche market - performers who wanted to sound vintage without investing in or risking vintage instruments or recording studios.

I've lost touch with him but last I heard, it was going to be traded or sold to finance the next acquisition.

fronobulax said:

He talked about the Retro series a lot because he had one and it emulated vintage instrument that was very close to one in his collection. He said that as an acoustic instrument the Retro sucked. It was better than no guitar but the sound compared to any one of a number of $500 entry level guitars. But when you plugged it in, tweaked the amp/PA and listened to the amplified sound it nailed the sound of the vintage instrument well mic'd.

I've lost touch with him but last I heard, it was going to be traded or sold to finance the next acquisition.

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Yes, either the Martin "vintage", or "retro" guitars would allude a better standard of quality. This guitar does play like a cheap guitar in my opinion, and the original owner left the factory saddle in without a dealer setup ever being done. I thought a good luthier could remedy that, but either way this guitar is a let down.

I love most Martin guitars, and even the new standard models have a classic appeal that could be a good player guitar. If your friend would ever get into the early Guild's of any model I am certain he would find a great vintage vibe, and quite a following for those guitars.

continued..

fronobulax said:

I've lost touch with him but last I heard, it was going to be traded or sold to finance the next acquisition.

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Any chance he was reluctant to admit it was gonna be a Guild?
:glee:

In recent talks with ebay, they have seen the listing and agree that the guitar is not as advertised and felt that the seller was perhaps "inadvertently" hiding important details. I am not posting the ebay listing, since I am confident of a resolution, and want to minimize going public with the "he said, she said" scenario.

The condition of the guitar and the case were worn more than average for a guitar produced some time in 2014, with many dents, scratches, finish rub-out, etc. If I ate, party'd, drank, and then played guitar- mine all would look that way too, but instead I just love a guitar in great shape. I am sending images to ebay, and they agree that some form of agreed settlement will be done, most likely that the guitar will go back to the owner.

This is a bad experience and I feel I am lucky provided the outcome will be as was agreed so far by ebay. I can't image this type of success with ebay resolution happening too frequently, so I am revising the way I do things. More than likely for any additional guitars I obtain I will drive the 100+ miles to go to the few boutique shops remaining and pick one out "sight seen" at the shop.

My main objective was to get a back up 6 string guitar with pick-up, since I am now playing guitar more.

I'm glad it sounds like it will work out to your satisfaction.

gjmalcyon said:

I'm glad it sounds like it will work out to your satisfaction.

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I hope the F212XL worked OK. I know that you passed it on. At the time I got it, there were plenty of good deals to be found, so I obtained probably too many of them. Afterwards I picked out 6 different older Guild's to restore, and let a few other ones go. Then I discovered just how much is involved in guitar repair.

On a 1965 F312 the neck would not come off, and my luthier mentor took it as a challenge to not be beaten. After 1 1/2 hours of repeated steaming it came off, but there was extensive finish repair needed on the neck and on the guitar body around where the neck was removed. It was a result of using all that steam.

In the long run I learned a lot since getting into this in 2010. Especially I could never be like say, Jackson Browne that has over 200 guitars spread out al over his house.

idealassets said:

I hope the F212XL worked OK. I know that you passed it on.

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Right from the beginning, you let me know it needed a neck reset, and priced it accordingly. Unfortunately, my luthier wasn't able to get the neck off (and this is a guy who really knows what he's doing). Instead, he did some work on the bridge, shaved the saddle, and ramped the string slots.

Even with a pretty shallow break angle, this is a wonderful sounding guitar. After I picked up the JF4-12, I decided the 212XL needed a new home, and figured my guitar-playing nephew would appreciate it. He's a good kid, and his dad's magical '70's-vintage D-40 first got me interested in Guilds many years ago. Couldn't think of a better thing to do than hand it to him and say, "play the hell out of it."

And now that I think about it, your F-212XL was my first LTG-enabled acquisition.

Congrats on getting it worked out Ideal! I had similar transactions in the past on Ebay and Now I have a very few select shops that I will do business with on a guitar Sight unseen and they all have excellent return policies. They are of course all over the country but I have found that if you find a good shop to order from you can expect the same quality assurance every time. As far as buying used sight unseen I never have a problem with an LTG community deal as every one here is very upfront about condition and what to expect. Good luck to you in your Future search for another 6 string and I think taking a day driving the miles to actually hold and play the guitar is way better than waiting 5-6 days for shipping to deliver what sometimes becomes a Crap Shoot.

TX