1970 Guild F-312-NT - Can it be Brazilian Rosewood?

Hello,

I recently purchased a 1970 Guild F-312-NT that the seller thought was from 1969. I emailed with Hans Moust and he identified the guitar as actually from 1970 based on the serial number and use of: "Brown Silhouet label that was originally printed for the Mark-series classicals from the early ‘60s. After the move from Hoboken, NJ to Westerly, RI these labels were used on a limited number of instruments together with the leftover oval labels with the Hoboken, NJ address that were also used till they ran out of them towards the end of the year 1970."

I was wondering if anyone knows if the beginning of 1970 is a hard cut off date for the use of Brazilian rosewood? I have read various opinion stating that it continued into 1970 on some models, but I'm not sure about this one as to me the color looks more like East Indian rosewood, but the grain structure looks more like verifiable Brazilian rosewood guitars I have seen. However, I think the way the grain of the backs and sides look may just be due to the cut not being quarter-sawn as are most guitars made of East Indian.

I know that it is possible that you can't really tell by just looking at it, hence I was hoping to get find some information based on historical knowledge of what Guild did after the move to Westerly.

Thanks!

P.S. Is there a way to upload a photo to this post? I can't find the button for that!

GM,
Welcome to LTG!

First, re: posting pics...
You need to host the pics on an image hosting site/server, and then can embed or link those images to your post. Instructions/comments can be found here...

As to your question re: BRW... I don't think there is a precise cutoff, where all guitars made before were BRW and all after were EIR. Like most manufacturers, the transition occurred during the late 60s (except for a few limited edition models, like the 50th anniversary D-55s), so BRW Guilds from the 70s are rare. But, I have seen reports of several Guilds with BRW sides and EIR backs made during the early 70s. I have also seen a report (from a trusted source) of a BRW B&S Guild dread from as late as 1975. IF you post some pics (see link above for instructions), I am sure others will chime in with their opinions. I don't think Guild kept any official records of guitars built with BRW vs EIR, but if there are any, LTG member Hans Moust would be the person to ask.

Welcome aboard, GuildedMoon.

Congrats on your F-312! That's a great guitar from a great era!

I think the answer is that it could be Brazilian, but likely isn't. I think that sometimes Brazilian sides were used with an Indian back during the early years of Westerly.

In any case, it'd be great to see some pictures. You have to host them on another site and link to them in your post. See the thread in our FAQ section.

GardMan said:

GM,
Welcome to LTG!

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Second that!

GardMan said:

As to your question re: BRW... I don't think there is a precise cutoff, where all guitars made before were BRW and all after were EIR. Like most manufacturers, the transition occurred during the late 60s (except for a few limited edition models, like the 50th anniversary D-55s), so BRW Guilds from the 70s are rare. But, I have seen reports of several Guilds with BRW sides and EIR backs made during the early 70s. I have also seen a report (from a trusted source) of a BRW B&S Guild dread from as late as 1975. IF you post some pics (see link above for instructions), I am sure others will chime in with their opinions. I don't think Guild kept any official records of guitars built with BRW vs EIR, but if there are any, LTG member Hans Moust would be the person to ask.

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Just by way of "corroboration", Gardman's statements jive with everything I remember reading about how long Brazilian was available from Guild.
I can recall seeing a '73 D50 that had BR back and sides, and maybe 3 others from similar frame ('71-'74) that had mixed backs and sides.
Even after the sizes big enough for backs were used up there was still a stock of pieces suitable for bridges even into the late '70's "IIRC".

In past some folks have mentioned a "sniff test", that BR has a characteristic sweetish odor (even "bubble-gum flavor" smell) , but getting some shavings to verify it might not be a desirable thing for the guitar.

If you keep it in a hardshell case for a long time, the smell becomes easier to detect. I had a Lys L25 that looked to be EIR from color/grain. Guitar nneded a neck reset, so I never really played it. Eventually, ended up donating my entire Lys collection to a museum. In the process of doing that, I went over the guitars with the people from the museum so that they could see the various models. When I opened up the Lys L25, the scent of the Brazilian was unmistakable. I guess that the time it had spent inside its hard shell case had allowed the scent to be trapped and it accumulated, and when the case was opened, it was very apparent.

Hello, and thanks for your replies! At the time I first posted here I also reached out to Hans Moust with some photos of the guitar and he replied: "That is definitely Brazilian rosewood; no doubt about it!. As far as the use and discontinuation of Brazilian rosewood is concerned, it was completely different from the pattern that we’ve seen in guitars from the Martin Company."

I was also unsure about the date of this guitar and Hans explained a bunch of things:

Me: The serial number of AS-502 falls outside of the official serial number ranges as listed on various websites. The last serial number for 1969 for the 312 is supposed to be AS-497.

Hans: The serial number lists that you find on line are incomplete and there are some omissions.
I’ve explained the absence of a part of the numbers for 1970 in the serial number chapter of ’The Guild Guitar Book’.

Me: The interior sticker is of the old 1st label style from 1953-1959 however although the sticker is similar in size and design the text is not the same as other photos of this sticker I have found online.

Hans: The label that’s used is the Brown Silhouette label that was originally printed for the Mark-series classicals from the early ‘60s. After the move from Hoboken, NJ to Westerly, RI these labels were used on a limited number of instruments together with the leftover oval labels with the Hoboken, NJ address that were also used till they ran out of them towards the end of the year 1970.

This really is a great sounding guitar. And my first Guild. I am on the lookout for more Guild's now! I had played a 1969 F312 this summer ( pictures of that guitar were floating around this forum) - It sounded incredible - but alas it was too beat up to be a usable instrument without significant work which would have put the total money invested in the instrument far ahead of any potential resale value.

This one sounds amazing as well. I have played many 12 strings, and after I unpacked this up I knew it had the tone the second I tuned the first string because I could hear the overtones exploding out of the sound hole.

So my plan this next month is to sell a bunch of gear and get some money together for a Guild 6 string with a fat neck and a nut width of at least 1 11/16. Any recommendations on what models to be on the look out for?



Seem to have messed up the image link, they are at this link: http://imgur.com/a/jbdQF

GuildedMoon said:

So my plan this next month is to sell a bunch of gear and get some money together for a Guild 6 string with a fat neck and a nut width of at least 1 11/16. Any recommendations on what models to be on the look out for?

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It might be easier to list the ones that were narrower than 1-11/16" during the Hoboken-Westerly period:
early M20's, and the late versions of the "FXXce" series (Cutaway A/e's like F4ce, F65ce)
Think early F20's were 1-5/8 as well.
But overwhelmingly the nut spec was 1-11/16 for all of Westerly and even later, with a smattering of 1-3/4 nuts that appear to have been made in special runs and never officially spec'd as such, like some DV series guitars between '93 and '94, and a run of D40's from '64 "IIRC". WE've seen 2 of those here and they also got very flat fingerboards which appeared to be an attempt to cater to bluegrass pickers. It was, after all, introduced as the "D40 Bluegrass Jubilee".
"Fat neck" is a different issue, all the necks at Westerly were finished by hand on a belt sander so profiles vary from guitar to guitar even in same batch, but D40's seem to get that comment the most often.
Also late 'mid-'70's to '80's seem to be a period of "fat necks" but late Westerly (post '95) seems to be a period of flatter necks.

chazmo said:

Congrats on your F-312! That's a great guitar from a great era!

I think the answer is that it could be Brazilian, but likely isn't.

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Ditto. But I am hoping it is...

Westerly Wood said:

Ditto. But I am hoping it is...

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Uhhhhhhh......see post #6?

My 1974 Westerly F-48's nut is 1 5/8".

Rich Cohen said:

My 1974 Westerly F-48's nut is 1 5/8".

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I'd be willing to bet that was either a production anomaly (maybe a result of the hand shaping) or possibly requested (or modified by a later owner).
But a good point, that stuff happened and the best advice is to "test the guitar for fit" if possible.
Are you original owner?

Rich Cohen said:

My 1974 Westerly F-48's nut is 1 5/8".

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Believe it or not anomalies like that were not unheard of throughout Westerly Production. It may have just came from the factory like that. I have seen guitars as late as 2000-2001 that were specified as 1 11/16" nut width have a 1 5/8" nut. I had a Starfire II from 2000 that came from the factory with a skinny 1 5/8" neck and they were supposed to have a 1 11/16". From what I understand even at the end of Westerly production the necks were still being finished all by hand which leads to some having different widths and profiles. I believe GAD is going though this right now with a late Westerly X-500T he just purchased and it has a 1 5/8" Neck.

TX

The nut on my '94 DV 72 is 1.726", or a little more than 1 11/16 but just a hair less than 1 3/4.

DV-72 NT said:

The nut on my '94 DV 72 is 1.726", or a little more than 1 11/16 but just a hair less than 1 3/4.

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Don't have as much time to search as usual, to find an earlier thread where we tried to narrow down the period when that happened, but that fits right in with the ones I mentioned. Suspect that one's just a wee bit narrow due to hand-shaping of neck.

Does it look like the back of my '71 F-312NT? If so, it's EIR.

Bill



And, if you're interested, here's the front:

Wow, that's some beautiful rosewood, GuildedMoon! Looks Brazilian to me, and besides if Hans says it is, then it is. What a beautiful guitar!! :encouragement:

6L6 said:

Does it look like the back of my '71 F-312NT? If so, it's EIR.

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davismanLV said:

Wow, that's some beautiful rosewood! Looks Brazilian to me, and besides if Hans says it is, then it is. What a beautiful guitar!!

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Sorry davisman, but you misunderstood what 6L6 was trying to explain to the original poster of this thread! It's not a photo of the back of the guitar in question. That's an East Indian Rosewood back and it's not the back of the guitar that the original poster showed to me!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

No Hans, I wasn't addressing Bill (6L6), and not responding to his post but to the photos the Original Poster linked to higher up in the thread!! Thanks for the clarification, though. Now that I look at it, someone might have thought I was responding to 6L6!! Sorry for any confusion.

I was referencing the photos in THIS LINK: http://imgur.com/a/jbdQF

p.s. - I edited my original post to clarify!!

davismanLV said:

No Hans, I wasn't addressing Bill (6L6), and not responding to his post but to the photos the Original Poster linked to higher up in the thread!! Thanks for the clarification, though. Now that I look at it, someone might have thought I was responding to 6L6!! Sorry for any confusion.

I was referencing the photos in THIS LINK: http://imgur.com/a/jbdQF

p.s. - I edited my original post to clarify!!

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Good, I got it! But in that light I do not understand why 6L6 posted a photo of the back of his F-312!

Anyway, that's why I feel that it's a good idea to use the 'Quote' function, so the readers know what you are responding to; especially with longer threads!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

If ever we meet in real life, Hans... (I hope) you can slap me around a bit and I'll deserve it. LMAO!! Thanks for the information. And STILL the Brazillian on GuildedMoon's post is truly amazing. I'll try to be more clear and succinct from now on!! :encouragement:

Unfortunately quoting him would have only given a LINK and not the IMAGES but still... I was not clear. I get vague from time to time. It happens.... LOL!! Thanks, amigo!!