New Guild F65CE-Date and Price?

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I've run across a new blond Guild F65CE, SN#AF651002, in a former dealer's remaining stockpile. She's been out of business for several years but has some select guitars for sale. The serial number is post 1999, and as noted in other threads on this forum, the websites posting Guild SN's stop in 1999. So, I'm guessing 2000-2001. Can anyone provide a specific date? And, what do you think would be fair value for this beauty? The seller says she has the OHSC, but it is stored away with a bunch of other cases so I haven't seen it to confirm.

I've played it once for about 10 minutes and only afterwards was able to do enough research on this forum and other sites to determine that this might be an exceptional find. It played well, although the action was a bit high and the strings were worn (probably never changed). The electronics worked fine (through an older solid state amp the owner had available) and it immediately produced some nice bluesy sounds. Who knows how many people have picked it up over the years, but it was never sold and, thus, remains in like-new condition. The owner has lost track of its original selling price so I'd like to make her a fair offer. I've seen web prices and forum discussions pricing these anywhere from $700- $1950 (Norm's Rare Guitars in LA has a sunburst F65CE for this higher price). Any ideas? What should I look for when I return to the seller's place (it's about an hour away from my home) and take a closer look at it? Thanks!
 

txbumper57

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I see this is your second post so let me say Welcome to LTG Chaser! Hans Moust here on the forum would be the one to ask about the year of manufacture on the Guild F65CE. You can send him a message here on the forum or on his website guitararchives . He may be along shortly to give you a year of manufacturer according to the serial number as he does check the forum on a regular basis.

As far as price is concerned, even though it is considered to be still a new guitar I would price it as used. The reason being is that you mention the seller is a former dealer and Guild Cordoba won't honor a warranty on a NOS guitar like that unless the dealer is a current Guild Dealer. If they were a current Guild dealer there would be a good chance you could get a full warranty on the guitar even considering it's age as it has never been sold new.

According to the Blue Book of Acoustic Guitars the F65CE in Excellent condition is listed at $1350-$1650, Average condition is $950-$1100. The Blue Book also lists the last MSRP as $2299 so you figure MAP pricing or Minimum Advertised Price would have them selling new with full warranty around $1700-$1800. Personally I have seen in the last year F65CE's in Excellent like new condition selling in the $1000-$1300 range on the open market. They may be listed for more than that as an asking price but that is what they have been selling for here in the USA. They are great guitars and have almost a cult following here on the forum with more than a few members really loving them.

One last thing, Make sure you get the original case with it as the F65CE is not a regular shaped guitar and finding an aftermarket case that fits it right with the correct depth and shape may be a problem.

Best of luck and I hope you find everything you are looking for!

TX
 

gjmalcyon

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davismanLV

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Hey Chaser, TX pretty much covers all your questions. I agree with the used pricing strategy because of the age. Also, you mention the action is a bit high and since it's not mated with its case, you have to worry about it being stored not in the case for all this time, possibly under full string tension. That could effect the neck angle. Checking the neck angle with a straight edge is covered HERE.

If the neck angle is off, then you're closer to a neck reset situation which is a more expensive repair than many. Also, how it's been stored and hopefully humidified and temperature controlled is a factor in the evaluation. It might just need the saddle lowered a bit but that's for you to decide. Evaluate with care and let us know what you decide and how it all turns out. These guitars also have a 1 5/8ths nut, so a bit narrower than some of Guilds other acoustics. Make sure that fits your hands and playing style. Good Luck!! :encouragement:

p.s. - I see gjmalcyon was responding as I was typing.... and he got there first!! DAMN!! LOL!!!
 
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Awesome information and advice--thanks! I'll wait a bit to see if Hans checks in with this forum before I contact him directly.

I definitely will check neck angle--thanks for link (you anticipated my next question). What are manufacturer recommended specs for action height at 12th fret? I'm used to playing electric (e.g., my Guild '66 Starfire IV has insanely low action, without fret buzz), so what seems high to me may simply be within the normal for a Guild acoustic.

What do you make of the price on the F65CE at NormansRareGuitars.com (http://www.normansrareguitars.com/product.php?productid=5687&cat=&page=1)? Seems unusually high given Blue Book and recent sales.
 

gjmalcyon

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p.s. - I see gjmalcyon was responding as I was typing.... and he got there first!! DAMN!! LOL!!!

First, last, middle - doesn't matter. What does matter is the advice offered here tends to be consistent, reasonable, and based in reality.

That's pretty special in my book....
 

adorshki

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It played well, although the action was a bit high and the strings were worn (probably never changed).
Hi Chaser and welcome.
I'm gonna guess you're primarily an electric player because you had no issues with the narrow nut on those.
As for action, Guild's set-up spec was 5.5-6/64ths on bass E/12th fret and 4.5-5/64th on treble E.
A lot of folks find that's a little high for their tastes, but it does allow for good crisp hammer-ons and roll-offs and pretty aggressive strumming without buzzing, and plenty of room to lower as well.
They were intended to mimic the feel of an electric as closely as possible for a player who wanted to be able to swap between guitars with minimal need to adjust technique.
They were shipped with extra-lights .010-.047 so string tension on neck's not as big a worry as on a dreadnought.
Tops were AAA spruce and may have been sanded a little thinner than usual to enhance resonance on the small body.
I'd check for bridge lift, mine has developed a slight case of it.
Yes listed at $2299 and I got mine as a "closeout" with warranty, and OHSC at $1695 "out the door" (included tax).
All of the ones priced at lower end that I can recall had issues and/or were of the less-desirable "early" version with 24-3/4" scale and less sophisticated electronics.
Some of them even had maple tops which are noted for being less acoustically powerful (especially with the shortscale) than the spruce top versions.
If it's truly an unsold NOS instrument it may well be worth $1700.00, if you like it enough.
Let us know how it goes!
 
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davismanLV

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First, last, middle - doesn't matter. What does matter is the advice offered here tends to be consistent, reasonable, and based in reality.

That's pretty special in my book....
In my book as well, amigo. As long as he gets the information to properly evaluate the guitar and make a decision, that's really all that matters.
 
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Indeed-consistent and reliable info-exactly what I need for the next step. I'll post when I learn more.
 

adorshki

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Indeed-consistent and reliable info-exactly what I need for the next step. I'll post when I learn more.

I somehow missed you second post in which you mentioned you do have a Starfire.
Did you get educated by seller that on that version F65ce there were both a soundhole mic and a UST?
There's a slider control to select balance between 'em, as well as a notch filter to help with feedback.
There was even a stereo version but I don't know if there's a ready way to ID that.
 

hansmoust

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I've run across a new blond Guild F65CE, SN#AF651002, in a former dealer's remaining stockpile. She's been out of business for several years but has some select guitars for sale. The serial number is post 1999, and as noted in other threads on this forum, the websites posting Guild SN's stop in 1999.


Hello Chaser,

Welcome! Actually those serial number lists give the suggestion that they go up to 1999, but the last numbers are for 1997.

Anyway, the Guild F65CE you're looking at was completed during the year 2000.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 
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I somehow missed you second post in which you mentioned you do have a Starfire.

Because I'm new to the forum, my initial posts are vetted by the moderator, which means that Real Life prevents my posts from showing up in Real Time. So, you provided exactly the information on action height I had requested but before it was posted. Are all LTG members similarly gifted with Nostradamus-like abilities? Thanks, again!
 

adorshki

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Because I'm new to the forum, my initial posts are vetted by the moderator, which means that Real Life prevents my posts from showing up in Real Time. So, you provided exactly the information on action height I had requested but before it was posted. Are all LTG members similarly gifted with Nostradamus-like abilities? Thanks, again!

Oh yeah forgot about that, and then they pop up in original posting time order.
While I have been accused of being psychic, in this case it was just the mundane awareness that the comment's been made before so first off let's tell you what the spec was!
:friendly_wink:
 

marcellis

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I've run across a new blond Guild F65CE, SN#AF651002, in a former dealer's remaining stockpile. She's been out of business for several years but has some select guitars for sale. The serial number is post 1999, and as noted in other threads on this forum, the websites posting Guild SN's stop in 1999. So, I'm guessing 2000-2001. Can anyone provide a specific date? And, what do you think would be fair value for this beauty? The seller says she has the OHSC, but it is stored away with a bunch of other cases so I haven't seen it to confirm.

I've played it once for about 10 minutes and only afterwards was able to do enough research on this forum and other sites to determine that this might be an exceptional find. It played well, although the action was a bit high and the strings were worn (probably never changed). The electronics worked fine (through an older solid state amp the owner had available) and it immediately produced some nice bluesy sounds. Who knows how many people have picked it up over the years, but it was never sold and, thus, remains in like-new condition. The owner has lost track of its original selling price so I'd like to make her a fair offer. I've seen web prices and forum discussions pricing these anywhere from $700- $1950 (Norm's Rare Guitars in LA has a sunburst F65CE for this higher price). Any ideas? What should I look for when I return to the seller's place (it's about an hour away from my home) and take a closer look at it? Thanks!

They can be exceptional bargains. Also, I was able to get a slightly wider nut put on my antique burst model.
1/16 th of an inch makes a difference.

Tone-wise, the resonance is over-the top. I have had a stupid problem w/the Fishman barn door pick-up though.
It doesn't snap tightly into place anymore. It can push itself into the guitar's sound-hole interior if it's pushed too hard.
When that happens, I have to loosen the strings and push it back out.

Aggravating. But it's still the best guitar I've ever owned. Action, neck and saddle are still perfect,
w/.11's or .10's.
 
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I was able to look more closely at this Guild last weekend and, unfortunately, I quickly noticed some potential "deal-breaker" issues with the instrument. Your advice will be much appreciated! Although it played well and had strong volume/resonance, it also has slight bridge lift (I could fit the edge of a medium pick under the edge) and the bridge itself is cracked on each side of the saddle. The saddle appears to be pulled up and toward the neck. The neck is straight with reasonable action (5/64 at 12th fret on low E) but the action increases about 15th fret where fretboard meets the body; it appears the top has sunk a bit on the neck side of the sound hole. Since I'm not experienced with guitar repairs (only what I've read on this board and elsewhere online), I cannot confidently diagnose the extent of the problem. It probably is due to the lack of humidity and/or hanging on a basement wall for many years; there also is finish damage on the back of the neck corresponding to some years spent on a guitar stand. I put the guitar in its case--a very tight fit, obviously it had never been stored in the case since originally displayed for purchase sometime in 2000-2001. It's a beautiful guitar, but I'm saddened by its condition. Thoughts?What is the risk of serious structural damage inside the body? I don't think bridge replacements are very expensive ($50-100?), but perhaps on this guitar there are unknowns that could lead to significant repair expenses. What would be a reasonable offer for this condition? To reiterate-it currently is playable and sounds good both unplugged and plugged. Strings may be original, though, so I easily can imagine a brighter and more resonant response. Here are pictures--my first time posting pics through photobucket, so I'll try again if these don't work.

Guild%20in%20case%202_zpsxxf5ca45.jpg


Guild%20Bridge_zpspi31zez0.jpg


Guild%20Bridge%202_zpsjc3vkpoq.jpg
 

adorshki

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I was able to look more closely at this Guild last weekend and, unfortunately, I quickly noticed some potential "deal-breaker" issues with the instrument. Your advice will be much appreciated! Although it played well and had strong volume/resonance, it also has slight bridge lift (I could fit the edge of a medium pick under the edge) and the bridge itself is cracked on each side of the saddle.
Yeah, not good. I have a very slight case of bridge lift myself but it's only the thickness of heavier-weight copy paper, only about 1/8" deep, and NO sign of cracking.
First thing I think is: " I wonder if they strung it with mediums and left it that way untouched for years? Maybe aggravated by getting too dried out?"
Ah, I see you suspect that yourself due to storage conditions.
I might repeat some stuff already said as I continue, but I figure it's better said twice than not at all...

The saddle appears to be pulled up and toward the neck.
Excess string tension might have caused the leaning saddle which in turn caused the crack.
AS noted previously those were meant to be strung with .010-.047 Extra lights, but if somebody decided to "beef up the sound for display" with lights or even mediums when it came in to the shop, that might be the result.
When I got mine I could bend the B & E strings right off the fretboard and put lights (.012-.053) on it, thinking "It's a Guild, it can take it".
But after a couple of years I'd learned how to actually play it with finesse and went to "Custom Lights" (.011-.052), and that's when I noticed the bridge lift.
By then didn't know if the lights had caused it or it had come that way, but I'd also learned a lot more about 'em and realized the top might be thinner than say a dreadnought's top (gives it that endless resonance Marcellis mentioned), but therefore more easily deformed or damaged by excess string tension.

The neck is straight with reasonable action (5/64 at 12th fret on low E) but the action increases about 15th fret where fretboard meets the body; it appears the top has sunk a bit on the neck side of the sound hole.
Ebony neck: very stiff. Fretboard extension forced into top by excessive string tension pulling headstock towards saddle. Luthier needs to check braces.

... there also is finish damage on the back of the neck corresponding to some years spent on a guitar stand.
That really p--ses me off! A music store of all people should know better! Pointing more and more to me like damages are due to negligence due to poor knowledge, but, at least NCL is easily patched and blended into existing finish by a skilled finisher.
I put the guitar in its case--a very tight fit, obviously it had never been stored in the case since originally displayed for purchase sometime in 2000-2001.
Mine's still very tight too, and stored in case besides. Case itself is a huge plus, very hard to find by itself.

It's a beautiful guitar, but I'm saddened by its condition.
Yeah me too but at least it's returnable to original condition, there's nothing REALLY BAD so far.

Thoughts?What is the risk of serious structural damage inside the body?
I think pretty low actually.
I don't think bridge replacements are very expensive ($50-100?), but perhaps on this guitar there are unknowns that could lead to significant repair expenses.
The gotcha is that Under Saddle Transducer which'll require a little more finesse to remove and replace when doing the bridge.
Just realized it might mean having to R&R the soundhole mic at same time, don't know how the wiring works.

What would be a reasonable offer for this condition?
Consider that I recently put a personal value of original factory list price on a member's guitar that had a factory re-set and re-finish, based on my love of them and the factory work and papers.
To me this is almost the other extreme, it's like a violated virgin.
I'm thinking $1600 to start (I bought my '01 brand new with warranty for $1695.00 when list was $2295.00) and then start taking off all the cost of work that needs to be done, AFTER getting it appraised by a luthier of your choice.
I'm thinking just bridge and re-fin on neck are actually gonna come in closer to a couple hundred by themselves but it varies around the country. Action height at 5/64 is actually right at factory set up spec and bridge looks like original thickness so suspect it doesn't actually need neck re-set.
And factor in another $100.00 for your time and effort in getting the work done yourself.
When you feel yourself wavering, turn it over and look at the back for a while.
Closely.
That'll get you motivated again.
:biggrin-new:
 
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gjmalcyon

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That bridge worries me - like Adorshki says, I would not go near that guitar until a luthier examines it. If it is just a bridge replacement, that's OK news, but if it also needs a bridge plate replacement, that's going to run you more. That kind of crack in the bridge is often a result of too high a saddle and/or too shallow a saddle slot. If that's the case here, why? Is it to correct a too-high neck angle?
 

wileypickett

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A Guild I bought a few years ago had the same problem. My luthier replaced the old bridge, made a compensated bone saddle for it, and did a complete set-up, all for around 100 bucks or so, which included the cost of a replacement bridge.

I thought the bridge had cracked from being dried out, but my luthier thought not. He explained that when you get bridge lift in the back of the bridge, but it's still securely glued down in front, the bridge will sometimes crack at the saddle slot, since that's weakest part of the bridge. The grain pattern running in the same direction as the saddle slot, combined with the pull of the strings, increases the likelihood of it cracking there.

Like gjmalcyon says, try to get a luthier to take a look if possible.

But if you like everything else about the guitar, and the price is right, don't let the bridge problem hold you back. It can be repaired. And if it sounds great in condition it's in now, it'll sound even better once the hatches are battened down!
 
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walrus

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I know nothing about guitar repair, but that is a nice looking guitar! Good luck!

walrus
 

tjmangum

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Mine was a player used Craigslist find that came from Boston. Had the same leaning saddle and split bridge, plus a crack at the fretboard extension. Paid about $750 10 years ago and when I first opened the case, I thought I was screwed. My local luthier at the time told me "no problem" and fixed it up for about $75 and it became a strong player for many years. Used to play it in church. These are great guitars.
 
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