'90s Guild F-20?

sonicreducer

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Hey guys, I'm on the market for an F-20. My present options range from mid 60s Hoboken, and end in Westerly 1990. There aren't really any clear advantages in price. My question is whether there are any significant differences between a 60s, 70s, or 80s/90s F-20. Nut width? Did they switch from poly to nitro? Will buying later afford me some time before an inevitable neck reset? I look forward to everyone's experiences and expertise.
 

mavuser

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the 60s and early 70s F-20s have a 1 5/8" nut width, with a round but medium neck carve. they are short scale.

the mid 70s through maybe late 70s (or into early 80s?) has a 1 11/16" nut width, with a very chunky neck carve, and those are long scale. the body also got anywhere from 1/8"-1/4" deeper (there was variation, escpecially if you incorporate the M20s).

at some point in the early 90s, through early 2000's, they made the long scale version, with the 1 11/16" nut, but with an arched/laminated mahogany back (the earlier ones were flat back, solid wood).

the new ones from New Hartford (and/or Oxnard M-20) are the 60s short scale, flat/solid back design.

The import version M-120/GAD M-120/ "Westerly Collection" is also short scale, flat/solid back, but has poly finish instead of laquer.

great guitars!
 

sonicreducer

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The one I saw from 1990 had an arched back, like a D25. Are they all finished with nitro? Any significant differences in weight? My Westerly dreadnoughts weigh much more than the ones I've tried from Corona.
 

adorshki

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the new ones from New Hartford (and/or Oxnard M-20) are the 60s short scale, flat/solid back design.
@ Sonic:
I know we're still getting used to the "new" numbering system but Oxnard's M20 is all-hog just like the original.
M40 will be the "new" number for an F20, "M" denoting body size and "40" denoting 'hog body/spruce top.

So far I think we've only seen those in satin varnish finish, but all previous US-built Guild acoustics with only a couple of very rare exceptions were NCL.
Oxnard does have gloss NCL capability, just don't know if they'll offer it on the M40.
Reviews on new M20's are pretty good (not sure if they've actually shipped any M40's yet) and it would be one way to make sure you get a nice long life on the neck set and a warranty.
Re the neckset issue, the later long scale is going to have higher string tension so you may not be buying any time compared to a shortscale by getting a later production instrument, but I think the over-riding factor for any of 'em is gonna be how well they were cared for.
Main point is to let you know you do have an option to buy new again, or will shortly.
Good luck and keep us posted!
 

txbumper57

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One other thing to note is the New Oxnard Guild M20's and I would assume the M40's if they make them have a Mortise and Tenon neck joint instead of the traditional dovetail neck joint that you would find on the F20's made throughout all the different time periods. They have stated that the new Gloss D40 "Traditional" will have a dovetail neck joint but so far all of the other Oxnards are Mortise and Tenon neck joints to my knowledge per Guilds Response. That may not make a difference to some and may make a difference to others.

TX
 
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mavuser

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Hobokens and New Hartfords are lighter weight than Westerlys, for sure.

not that a Westerly F-20 is very heavy, more like the Hoboken F-20 is very light.
 

sonicreducer

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How do you guys feel about the solid vs laminate back on later models? Also, do you prefer the short or long scale?
 

txbumper57

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How do you guys feel about the solid vs laminate back on later models? Also, do you prefer the short or long scale?

Don't let the term "Laminate" fool you when you are referring to Guilds Arched Laminate back acoustics. The Arched Laminate back acoustics have no internal bracing on the back to get in the way of the reflection of the soundwaves. This gives the guitar considerably more projection than others. Also the lack of braces makes the guitar a bit lighter which also adds to the resonance and response of the guitar. The laminated backs that Guild pioneered go all the way back to the 50's with Guild acoustics.

I can say that I own lots of High end acoustics most all of which are solid wood flatback guitars and even some made of Brazilian RW and other exotic woods. That being said my Guild F50 Maple with the Arched laminated Maple back is one of my favorite guitars to play because of the Awesome tonal response I get out if it. Not only does it hold it's own against the solid back versions but in most cases it excels in places where the others do not.

"Laminate" has always been considered a somewhat dirty word when it comes to acoustics from the large amount of cheap laminated top foreign made acoustics on the market. The Laminated backs that Guild uses are of the highest quality with no "Filler Woods". Guild Arched back acoustics are some of the finest guitars ever made in my opinion and that includes all eras of American production.

TX
 

mavuser

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I am with Tex, the arched back Guilds are super nice for sure, that includes the F-20 and of course the maples which Guild is really known for. My personal issue with arched back guiatrs is that it moves around on my body while im trying to play. I really prefer flat back acoustics and solid body electrics. Even a Guild Starfire seems to roll on me a bit. but thats just me. also a friend of mine has an arched back Taylor, and he claims it is solid wood. I have to say it does appear that it could be solid wood that is pressed/arched. it is a super nice guitar. But there is a chance he just meant what Tex said (laminated but no "filler"). I mostly play electric so the flat back F-20 was a game changer for me on acoustic (found the right stings here as well-John Pearse 11s). One thing I did not mention in your other thread is that while the mid-late 70s flat back long scale F-20s are pretty hard to find, the 90s arch back long scale F-20 is even harder to find, they probably made the least of those. That one must ring for days and days with the extra depth in the back. honestly any F-20 in good playable condition will be killer. there is definitely some variation in neck carves and body depths so ask questions of the sellers if you are picky on that stuff.
 

rwmct

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The Laminated backs that Guild uses are of the highest quality with no "Filler Woods".

TX

I love both the laminate back Guilds I have had my hands on (both blond G37s from Westerly). But I was under the impression Guild did use filler wood, such as Poplar. I understand some makers use a laminate that consists entirely of layers of the tone wood the Guitar is represented to be made from (I believe Seagull does this with Cherry, for example). But I was not aware Guild did that.

And this being Guild, maybe they did one thing some of the time, and other things at other times?
 

ladytexan

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FWIW, I've never played a F20 I didn't like....Hoboken or Westerly. It's just a fun little guitar! Best of luck in getting your F20, sonicreducer! :)

And, because of the discussion regarding maple and laminate archbacks....well, I'm posting a few photos. I imagine Everyone might get tired of 'seeing' my '86 F20 maple archback, but just couldn't resist posting a few pictures....again. Just LUV this little guy!

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7617098616_9bac32ebab_b.jpg


7617099102_7546c2ba6e_o.jpg
 
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Quantum Strummer

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The biggest sounding F-20 I've ever played was a long-scale with an arched back. Must've been a '90s guitar (though I think it was used so who knows?) as that was when I played it. No idea whether the back was solid or lam.

Mine is short scale with a flat back. It's the lightest guitar I own, possibly the lightest I've ever played other than an old Kel Kroydon in poor condition that nearly floated out of my hands when I picked it up. It's loud for a small guitar but must be played gently to avoid over-compression.

-Dave-
 

adorshki

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I love both the laminate back Guilds I have had my hands on (both blond G37s from Westerly). But I was under the impression Guild did use filler wood, such as Poplar.
Yes you are correct and the answer is that it doesn't really matter what's in the middle because it's the outside layer (of the laminate, one of which winds up inside the guitar) that acts as a reflector.
There IS a difference in output between flat and arched backs:
"Archies" tend to sustain a lot longer that flatbacks and thus are great at producing very lush full sounding strummed chords and good even note-to-note volume when playing scales.
But all that overlapping sustain means they can be driven to the point of "muddiness", which is much less of a problem with a flatback.
Dedicated fingerpickers (bluegrass guys, for instance) tend to prefer a flatback because individual tones (notes) will be less impacted by the preceding or following notes.
I don't think the bracing on a flatback has any real impact on the sound being reflected. The varying depth and parabolic reflector characteristic (like those long range microphones or a satellite dish) is the real physical game changer.
The varying depth of an archback body enables a wider frequency spectrum to be bounced around inside the body. And then it focuses it towards the soundhole.

It took me a while of comparison to finally understand what "punchy" meant when people described their flatbacks, but I can definitely say my D40 is punchy compared the D25.
And this being Guild, maybe they did one thing some of the time, and other things at other times?
Yes that's also possible although my memory of Hans' explanation of that didn't mention any variance in the practice, only that a couple of other species of "filler" were used as well.
 

txbumper57

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I love both the laminate back Guilds I have had my hands on (both blond G37s from Westerly). But I was under the impression Guild did use filler wood, such as Poplar. I understand some makers use a laminate that consists entirely of layers of the tone wood the Guitar is represented to be made from (I believe Seagull does this with Cherry, for example). But I was not aware Guild did that.

And this being Guild, maybe they did one thing some of the time, and other things at other times?

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear with what I consider "Filler Wood". A lot of the Cheaper Laminate imports have a Veneer of wood for the inside and outside layers while the middle is made up of a Particle Board type material. The particle board type material is what I consider to be "Filler Wood". You won't find that kind of stuff on an Arched Laminate back Guild. I'm sure they may have changed the procedure a little over time on the making of the Laminate Arched backs but you have to remember that they have used the same Arched back press to form the backs for a very long time and I believe it is in Oxnard Now.

TX
 
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adorshki

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I'm sorry, I should have been more clear with what I consider "Filler Wood". A lot of the Cheaper Laminate imports have a Veneer of wood for the inside and outside layers while the middle is made up of a Particle Board type material.
Ahhh: "All-wood" vs "Wood plus composite". Good point.
And let's point out again (for our new friends) that laminates are generally regarded as undesirable in an acoustictop where they inhibit resonance and is why they're actually used in some electric archtops to help squelch feedback.
Even then there're some acoustic builds that defy the "tone-killer" rule, "red-label" Yamahas being a frequently mentioned type.

I'm sure they may have changed the procedure a little over time on the making of the Laminate Arched backs but you have to remember that they have used the same Arched back press to form the backs for a very long time and I believe it is in Oxnard Now.
Yes it is and it's been with 'em at least since Westerly if not Hoboken even (can't recall if that was ever verified.)
After all its first use would have been on laminated archtops, and then the backs of F50's.
Just don't know if they got a "new" one in Westerly in anticipation of growing demand.
also a friend of mine has an arched back Taylor, and he claims it is solid wood. I have to say it does appear that it could be solid wood that is pressed/arched. it is a super nice guitar. But there is a chance he just meant what Tex said (laminated but no "filler").
I'd be surprised if it's a single sheet , because
A: It's a lot harder to arch-press a single sheet thick enough to be a back because unlike sides, it's being stressed in several dimensions, and
B: Solid arched backs (or tops) are a lot more prone to cracking, but with solid arched tops they're carved, not pressed. And that's whole lot of labor cost.
By definition it only takes 2 layers to be a lamination but for best strength you'd like one layer's grain to be perpendicular to one next to it, so cosmetically, a 3rd layer makes it look "nice" again.
So, 3 very thin sheets glued up and steam-pressed is actually stronger than a single sheet.
We even had a guy join here a few years back who simply wouldn't believe his F65ce had a laminated back because the inside sheet's grain matched the outside so perfectly. But that was the norm during the early '90's.
It took a couple of months for me to notice that the inside layer of my D25 was actually pointing the opposite direction than the outside, that's when I first realized it was laminated.
After I joined here one of the Westerly employees, member Hideglue, said that actually would have been considered a production goof.
So it wouldn't surprise me if Taylor's just using the same aesthetic philosophy and it looks solid.
In fact, here's a quote from their website:
"The Baby Taylor’s upsized sibling is nearly a full-size Dreadnought (15/16 scale) that yields a more robust voice. It’s another great option as an affordable starter guitar, and its layered wood back and sides make it a resilient, travel-friendly companion for all kinds of players."
(my emphasis)
Also found a spec sheet which says the 110 series dread has laminated back.
 
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adorshki

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My personal issue with arched back guitars is that it moves around on my body while im trying to play. I really prefer flat back acoustics and solid body electrics. Even a Guild Starfire seems to roll on me a bit. but thats just me.
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that, I mean (for Sonicreducer's benefit), the arches aren't that deep, and they're not like genuine bowl-backed Ovations, which I can't stand for that reason alone.
So I just gotta wonder what''s your usual playing posture? If the guitar's resting on a leg it's on a flat side so it shouldn't be rolling around.
Since you mention even having the problem with a Starfire I assume you even mean when standing and using a strap, or is that not correct?
Are you sure maybe it's not more related to the fact that you're only 4'6" tall?
:biggrin-new:
 

mavuser

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yes I play standing with a strap. Nothing against the guitars that have arched backs, I just prefer flat backs because they lay flat agianst my body, both electic and acoustic. for that matter, I also have a tough time with arched *top* guitars, in that case I think i'm just used to flat tops...need all the help I can get!
 

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i would like make a couple of points:

1. There are more than a few laminate guitar makers that match the grain on the outer layers. I know for sure that this was standard practice at Takamine. Takamine doesn't pretend that their laminated back guitars are laminates, so they aren't tryimg to pass them off as solid back guitars.

2. Some laminated guitars do sound fine. The Yamaha Red Label guitars are the best known, but the lower end Seagull and Simon &Patrick guitars also have laminated backs, and sound good, too. The highest end laminated back and sides acoustic guitars are the Selmer Maccaferr D Holei gypsy jazz guitars (the original ones made in the 1920s-1940s). The laminates are two layers, and are specifically designed for this guitar designs The guitars, even the current ones, are remarkably loud for thier volume and projection.
 

rwmct

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I'm sorry, I should have been more clear with what I consider "Filler Wood". A lot of the Cheaper Laminate imports have a Veneer of wood for the inside and outside layers while the middle is made up of a Particle Board type material.

TX

Yeah, I figured you meant something like that. But since some manufacturers do apparently use all layers of the "face-wood" in their laminates, I was curious if Guild had done this.
 
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