Bi Sonics, Dark Stars & Humbuckers. How do I tell them apart ?

jc2940

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Been reading about the Bi Sonics, Dark Stars & Humbuckers. How do I tell them apart ??
 

Happy Face

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Welcome. You've come to the right place.

The humbuckers have silver faces.

The Bisonics (originals and reissues) and Darkstars have black faces. I have one base with each and by sight, I'm not sure if I Could tell you which is which.

Hopefully others will chime �� in.
 

jc2940

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Thanks Happy Face for the info. The humbuckers have silver faces/covers and the Bisonics (originals and reissues) and Darkstars have black faces.
OK, how do you tell the difference between the Bisonics (originals and reissues) and Darkstars ??
 

mavuser

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OK, how do you tell the difference between the Bisonics (originals and reissues) and Darkstars ??

there is also the NuSonic, Chisonic, and Curtis Novak BS/DS, in addition to the Dark Star, the Guild re-issue Bisonic, and the original Bisonic. just by looking at them, im not sure how you would tell them apart unless you removed the pickup from the instrument. in listening to them, it would be easier to conclude what is what (although some of the aforementioned options will definetly sound similar). The originals are pretty "vintage sounding" (very warm & punchy, and very hot). if you couldnt tell them apart by listening, i suppose that says something (good) about the reissues
 

jc2940

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Thanks Mavuser for the info. So, as I now understand, the only way you would tell them apart would be to remove the pickup from the instrument other than listening to them. So when they are removed, how would you tell the difference ? What would you be looking for ?
I do agree with what you mentioned when you said,
" if you couldn't tell them apart by listening, I suppose that says something (good) about the reissues "
 

fronobulax

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Sometimes I just have to repeat what everyone else has said, just because.

Guild bass humbuckers have chrome covers.
P1010701.jpg

Bisonics generally have a black insert and have a row of pole pieces and a row of adjusting screws.

BS-DS-1.jpg


I know Dark Stars were available in neck and bridge versions and I believe if you measured the distance between the pole pieces you could tell the bridge and neck versions apart. I do not know for certain whether the vintage (Hagstrom) Bisonics and the Newark Street Bisonics had different bridge and neck versions. I don't think they did but... Curtis Novak offers his BS-DS with two different pole piece spacings. One aligns well with the standard Gulld "harp" bridge and the other aligns well with a "Fender" type bridge. He also offers a custom, non-black insert at extra cost.

All this is to say, if the PU is installed in a bass it is going to be difficult if not impossible to tell which PUs are there unless pole piece measurements provide a clue.

I'm not one of those folks who take things apart out of curiosity because I am one of those folks who can never get things back together "just right" so I don't know what markings are on the back, if any. So I don't know what back markings are there and am not about to find out.

Curtis Novak says that the difference between his Bisonic emulation and his Dark Star emulation is just the number of windings in the coil. That suggests that electrical measurements might provide a clue.

I have vague recollections that some of the vintage PUs have one magnet and others have two. That may lead to another clue.

But it is pretty much a matter of sound. Some day I will make sound clips and if you need me to repeat my observations, I'll be glad to do so although I don't guarantee I am consistent :)

The humbucker photo comes from a for sale listing by bassmanpatsfan who sometimes posts here. The bisonic photo is Curtis Novak's BS-DS from his web site.
 

mavuser

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JC2940, i am not specifically familliar with whats "under the hood" of all of those pickups, but suffice it to say, the bottoms of all of those pickups will not appear nearly as identical as the tops...

you should be able to find a picture of the underside of an original vintage Hagstrom Bisonic somewhere online. same for the Novak BS/DS (those will say Novak and a date written in Sharpie marker on the bottom). and if you look hard enough for the others im sure you'll come up with something.

if you don't mind me asking, what exactly is the goal? are you in the market for a SF bass? i live in NY too and could possibly help you find one (in my closet!) which pickup is the one that you are after? are you just looking to acquire stand alone pickup(s)? or just general curiousity on how someone would tell seemingly identical pickups from one another (a quite reasonable inquiry in itself for sure)
 

jc2940

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Mavuser, thank you and everyone here for all the info & input about the pickups and wiring. I'm considering putting together a Custom Bass, possibly a short-er scale
{ 31" or 32" } and I'm looking into the pickups. Looking at the usual.... EMG, Aguilar, Seymour Duncan, Nordstrand, Curtis Novak, TV Jones brands etc. A possibility of an onboard pre amp also. So I compiling as much info as I can about the electronics & wiring. I was also looking into picking up a used bass and doing some modifications to it, but I'm still up in the air about that route. It seems like Mr. Novak maybe the way to go p/u wise, since he'll custom tailor the p/u to you personal taste.
 

mavuser

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JC, very cool. you may consider a Fender Musicmaster with a Novak BS/DS, or possibly a Novak Musicmaster or Mustang reissue/replacement pickup. heres a nice example of one:

cnVmcG.jpg



here is what the bottom looks like:

TfLrfx.jpg



and here is the bottom of a Guild Newark Street reissue Bisonic:

AngRGO.jpg
 

mellowgerman

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My current #1 funkenstein bass sports a Hanson ChiSonic in the most-neckward position. These are also used in many Lakland basses. Here is the Hanson site: http://www.hansonpickups.com/chisonics.htm
I'm a big fan of them and the nice thing is that for a boutique bisonic-esque pickup they are a lot cheaper than the alternatives. They don't look very much like a traditional bisonic though (a few different style options) and they do require a pretty big hole to be carved into the bass. In any case, I think they're definitely worth considering in your build.
I have had quite a bit of experience with these ChiSonics, vintage Hagstrom Bisonics (in and out of Guild basses), DarkStar pickups, and the Novak Bisonic. I really love them all, though my favorite (so far) was the original unmodified single-magnet Bisonic in my old 1966 Starfire bass. Next would be the Novak Bisonic (wound to vintage specs) which came very close to that 1966 pickup, aside from it having two magnets. Fred Hammon (the creator of DarkStar pickups) was nice enough to make a custom single-magnet Bisonic for me some years ago, which was also great.
Aside from the aesthetic differences, the ChiSonic is a bit of a deviation from the Bisonic/DarkStar design tonally as well. I've owned a few, having had them in both solid and semi-hollow basses. The one in my current bass, I bought second-hand and was supposedly technically wound to for the bridge position, but I like it just fine where it is. It has a very warm, tone, with a little more mid-emphasis than a traditional Bisonic pickup. I have never had one in a "bridge" position, so I can't speak to how they sound there.

 
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mellowgerman

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Also, in regard to distinguishing between the tone of the Hagstrom Bisonic, Novak Bisonic, Dark Star, etc... I think it would be tough unless it was a very controlled experiment, where you would have to have the same bass, with the same strings, through the same amp, recorded the exact same way, with the pickups in the same position(s), to be able to truly and accurately identify exact differences. They are all in the same family. As I mentioned above though, the ChiSonic is a bit of a deviation though, so that might provide some slightly more obvious differences. The Guild humbucker from the 70's and the Guild Humbucker from the 90's are both completely different animals when compared to all of their single-coil counterparts so far discussed in this thread. They sound good to some folks and bad to others, but they definitely don't sound like anything in the Bisonic family.
 

Minnesota Flats

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Having not played either, I would be interested to know (in general, descriptive terms) how the Guild humbuckers and the DeArmond "Gold Foils" found in some Starfires differ sonically from the Bi-Sonic-type variations already mentioned.
 

fronobulax

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Having not played either, I would be interested to know (in general, descriptive terms) how the Guild humbuckers and the DeArmond "Gold Foils" found in some Starfires differ sonically from the Bi-Sonic-type variations already mentioned.

My JS II has a pair of the 70's humbuckers. I use words like fat and boomy. I don't think there is much midrange and the treble can get screechy. In the days of my youth, I would select the neck PU only, set the suck ('deep/hard') switch to the bassier position and dial the tone back to zero. I could then get away with playing wrong notes because the sound coming out of the amp was boomy and it was really hard to tell what the pitch was.

Note that is in a solid body bass and after many, many years of believing otherwise, I am now of the opinion that body time and wood do effect the sound of an electric instrument.

The Bisonic in the '67 Starfire is not as boomy, not screechy and sounds fatter (more mid-range). I attribute most of these difference to the PU and not the body type.

My reference tone is Jack Casady, circa 1967 and "After Bathing at Baxters" is the best example. In my mind the '67 comes closest, the BS-DS is next and then the Newark Street. If I want that tone I don't even pick up the JS II or the Pilot. While there are differences any one of the Bisonics would be close enough that I would choose between them using other factors besides tone.
 

Minnesota Flats

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Thanks, fronobulax.

"My reference tone is Jack Casady, circa 1967 and 'After Bathing at Baxters' is the best example."

It don't get much better'n that, IMHO. Saw him play his Yggdrasil bass live a couple times (through a Panoflex?) back in the day, once sitting in with Hendrix and again just when Hot Tuna first started performing. What a sound!
 

mavuser

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Also, in regard to distinguishing between the tone of the Hagstrom Bisonic, Novak Bisonic, Dark Star, etc... I think it would be tough unless it was a very controlled experiment, where you would have to have the same bass, with the same strings, through the same amp, recorded the exact same way, with the pickups in the same position(s), to be able to truly and accurately identify exact differences.

I had a cool experience as a Guild bass enthusiast (and Grateful Dead fan), not exactly the experiment Mello describes, but it was at least the same band, in the same venue, with the same bass player, maybe using the same amp and/or strings (playing some of the same songs, or at least a couple id guess)...

Ive seen the band JRAD (Joe Russo's Almost Dead) at Brooklyn Bowl a few times. The first time I saw them there, the bass player Dave Dreiwitz was using a 70s Guild SF II bass with humbuckers. He had it dialed in, but his style, and that bands style, is not really the Guild humbucker sound. he was playing great lines, and his tone was really great, it just wasn't dominating in the mix (in that regard, basically the opposite of Phil Lesh). now he sounded good, i mean really good, but still, I thought to myself "now here is somone worthy of upgrading to a Bisonic." Even so, maybe he had before, and didnt like it ( which is not out of the question for a professional if a Bisonic is buzzing or humming in a particular venue).

the next time I saw JRAD at Brooklyn Bowl, a few months later, of course the first thing im looking for is the 70s SF Bass...and Dreiwitz walks out wielding an Alembic Series 1!! i couldn't believe it. and... WOW! what a game changer! just crushing Lesh bombs every note. i was just on missle lock watching him all night, geeking out so hard on his bass and the fact that he swapped out the SF. i just couldnt beleive how unreal that Alembic sounded. i have listend to countless hours of Phil and the Dead, seen him/them live hundreds of times. it wasnt anything I hadn't heard before, but with Dave playing, in that venue, with that band, it sounded so nasty, and I had just heard him play an entire show with the Starfire Humbuckers before that. heres a couple pics, ill try to come back here with some vids. sorry for the epic veer, u kinda had to be there i guess. was thinking of u guys at the time!

hcrNLl.jpg



bYMmDJ.jpg
 

mellowgerman

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Man I've been jonesing for an Alembic. But first I need to get back into a vintage bisonic'd Starfire
 

adorshki

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Thanks, fronobulax.

"My reference tone is Jack Casady, circa 1967 and 'After Bathing at Baxters' is the best example."

It don't get much better'n that, IMHO. Saw him play his Yggdrasil bass live a couple times (through a Panoflex?) back in the day, once sitting in with Hendrix and again just when Hot Tuna first started performing. What a sound!

As a true believer who thought for years that "Baxter's" was done with a Guild, I must remind folks that it (and the first 2 albums) were done with a Fender Jazz Bass and a Versatone, according to Jack's recollection to MGod, and other sources.

Capsule history/interview here:
http://www.flyguitars.com/interviews/jackCasadyGuildBass.php
(Ok, he says "I don't think I recorded with it.." and I still wanna believe that "Spare Chaynge" and "Won't You Try" might actually be the Guild, but it looks like we'll never know for sure... )
:friendly_wink:
 
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fronobulax

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As a true believer who thought for years that "Baxter's" was done with a Guild, I must remind folks that it (and the first 2 albums) were done with a Fender Jazz Bass and a Versatone, according to Jack's recollection to MGod, and other sources.

Capsule history/interview here:
http://www.flyguitars.com/interviews/jackCasadyGuildBass.php
(Ok, he says "I don't think I recorded with it.." and I still wanna believe that "Spare Chaynge" and "Won't You Try" might actually be the Guild, but it looks like we'll never know for sure... )
:friendly_wink:

Warning - Snark attack

Would you point out to me where I ever stated that my reference tone was equipment specific? I have found it is extremely difficult to discuss tone when all you can use are words. One way I have adopted to counter that is to refer to something that is recorded and widely available. People may not understand what I mean when I say a "woody growl" but they can all listen to Baxter's and get an idea of what sounds I am trying to describe.

That said, I can certainly try to remember and clarify that I am not saying Baxter's was played on a Starfire even though that is what I am trying to make a Starfire sound like.

However I think the video below is clearly uses a Starfire and to my ears the sound I strive for from Baxter's is also here :)



I also need to note that if I were absolutely committed to sounding like Jack I would be doing a lot more with amps and would be studying his hands and technique.

:)
 

Happy Face

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"I also need to note that if I were absolutely committed to sounding like Jack I would be doing a lot more with amps and would be studying his hands and technique."

Attire and hair style as well! Appearance is 90% of it !!!
 
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