next Oxnard model announced ...

davismanLV

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I'm with you on the bolt on necks. And you're guaranteed a decent neck angle when the guitar is NEW as well. If the angle is off, they unbolt and reshim and there you go!! If it's glued, they're kinda stuck......
 

Rayk

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Has anyone ask the new folks with m20's to look inside ?
Maybe not needed , this vid which many have seen shows the neck block not fully but it does not look like it has bolt holes but .....

 
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txbumper57

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Has anyone ask the new folks with m20's to look inside ?
Maybe not needed , this vid which many have seen shows the neck block not fully but it does not look like it has bolt holes but .....

That is why we were discussing the serial number plate earlier in the thread Ray. There is a thin piece of wood that they have placed over the bottom of the neck block with the serial number on it that completely obstructs the view of the bottom of the neck block. In order to verify the neck joint one way or another that plate would have to be removed.

TX
 

Rayk

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Well this what Guild says " the neck joints are
mortise and tenon. "
 

txbumper57

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Well this what Guild says " the neck joints are
mortise and tenon. "

Did you ask the if it is bolted in the Mortise and Tenon joint, Similar to Martin's "Mortise and tenon" Joint?

TX
 

Rayk

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Did you ask the if it is bolted in the Mortise and Tenon joint, Similar to Martin's "Mortise and tenon" Joint?

TX
What ? I don't know that! Aaaaaaaaah ........
 

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Well, it's not like other, high end guitar makers aren't doing built-ons, so tempus fugit...
 

kostask

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There is nothing wrong with bolt on necks. The dovetail neck joint was a great idea when guitars were being built with hot hide glue, but some (especially in the hand builder world) wonder about how good a dovetail neck joint is when aliphatic glue is used. Theory is that the aliphatic glue (basically the white wood glues that are around, Titebond being a common one) never really harden up completely, always being somewhat flexible. Due to this, some string energy is absorbed by the aliphatic glue vibrating, which takes some of the string energy away from the top. I don't know if this is even audible, but the basic concern seems valid.

Some hand builders in the past have used mortise and tenon joints without bolts. They use wooden wedges that pass through both the mortise and tenon to keep the neck on tightly. Neck resets are basically the same as with bolted on necks: push out the wedges, pull the neck off, put in the shim that corrects the neck angle properly, put the neck on, and put the wedges back in. I think Michael Gurian used to do this. Just a different way of doing things.
 

Rayk

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Bolt ons are good in my book my cv1 works well .
What brilliant idea the bolt on the neck is unbolt it and change bodies and Bam ! New guitar sweet !
 

adorshki

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There is nothing wrong with bolt on necks. The dovetail neck joint was a great idea when guitars were being built with hot hide glue, but some (especially in the hand builder world) wonder about how good a dovetail neck joint is when aliphatic glue is used. Theory is that the aliphatic glue (basically the white wood glues that are around, Titebond being a common one) never really harden up completely, always being somewhat flexible. Due to this, some string energy is absorbed by the aliphatic glue vibrating, which takes some of the string energy away from the top. I don't know if this is even audible, but the basic concern seems valid.
Years ago there was a thread containing a ref from Chazmo about New Hartford going to Titebond for neck sets, due to faster set up time.
The tone thing wasn't brought up at that time but what was brought up was what you mentioned about the strength of the glue itself.
ALL glues have a "creep strength" rating, think of it as "stretchablity" and hide glue has the highest creep strength rating of all glues suitable for woodworking use.
Basically it don't stretch so it's the best thing to use in setting necks.
I found it interesting that within a year after that coming out we had a couple of reports of a couple of New Hartfords (one a 12-er) exhibiting signs of premature neck dive.
My personal belief is that optimum transfer of vibration between neck and top via fretboard extension and heelblock is with a glued joint, hide glue being the best transmission medium due to hardness.
You just have to feel the neck vibrating in your hand while you're rocking out like Richie Havens sometime to be a believer that it somehow helps tone and volume.
In fairness I have to admit that I'm willing to try out a bolt-on without prejudice, especially since Guild saw fit to experiment with it themselves, but I also note that they supplemented the bolt-on neck with the "spider" tone-arm attachment to transmit extra vibration from the heelblock to the top.
That could imply they were aware of that phenomenon and that a bolt-on might need the "extra assist" for volume but it could also mean they were just trying to "up the game" and it worked better with the graphite heelblock.
 

txbumper57

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I'm not advocating one way or the other for whether or not bolt on necks on Acoustics are good or bad. Everyone has opinions and a lot of them are different. I am just trying to verify whether or not the D20/M20 has a bolt on neck or variant of a bolt on neck. "Mortise and Tenon" can be either a non bolt on or a bolt on. If it does that's fine, If it doesn't that's fine. If it does I am just curious as to why Guild/Cordoba didn't list it in the official specs on the Guild Website or make a point to let customers know before their purchase. Maybe we should ask Dave and Fixit since Jacobs is a authorized repair center?

TX
 
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adorshki

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I'm not advocating one way or the other for whether or not bolt on necks on Acoustics are good or bad. Everyone has opinions and a lot of them are different. I am just trying to verify whether or not the D20/M20 has a bolt on neck or variant of a bolt on neck.
TX
I'd be mightily surprised if they instituted such a drastic design change without making it clear, and I also didn't see what you saw in those pics of the rim inside the form, about the screws being clearly visible.
I suspect all it is, is what Gardman said about them simply being alignment aids, especially since Ren has used the technique before according to Bobouz.
Both of those guys are pretty credible to me.
Oh, waitaminnit, not that you're not....
:biggrin-new:
 
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bobouz

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Just wanted to clarify that I had only mentioned that Ren used locating holes & dowels at Gibson (both for fingerboard and bridge alignment). I haven't seen any information regarding whether Oxnard's neck joint is a dovetail or bolt-on arrangement. In looking up the specs for the D-20 & M-20 on Guild's site, there's a lot of spec info, but nothing about the neck joint.

It would be interesting to know for sure. And regardless of the design of those two models, it's great to see a D-40 with traditional specs on the horizon!
 
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adorshki

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Just wanted to clarify that I had only mentioned that Ren used locating holes & dowels at Gibson (both for fingerboard and bridge alignment). I do not have a clue as to whether or not Oxnard's neck joint is a dovetail or bolt-on arrangement.
Sorry buddy, was trying to credit the source not throw you under the bus, why I qualified it with "before". :friendly_wink:
I think it is a very relevant point even if it only winds up applying to his Gibson days, it was a small insight into his methods and I appreciated that in any case.
 

txbumper57

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I'd be mightily surprised if they instituted such a drastic design change without making it clear, and I also didn't see what you saw in those pics of the rim inside the form, about the screws being clearly visible.
I suspect all it is, is what Gardman said about them simply being alignment aids, especially since Ren has used the technique before according to Bobouz.
Both of those guys are pretty credible to me.
Oh, waitaminnit, not that you're not....
:biggrin-new:

You have been mightily surprised quite a bit lately with speculating and assuming Al. LOL! Come on , You are the one who convinced yourself and guaranteed that the new Junior Jumbo was actually a renamed OM240 and Guild was just pulling our leg about it.

The only reason any of this came to light was the specific announcement that the New Traditional Guild D40 will have a Dovetail Neck Joint. That got a few of us to wondering whether or not the D20/M20's had a dovetail neck joint or some other kind. Thanks to Ray he said Guild confirmed they were a Mortise and Tenon Joint, Not if they were a Bolt on Mortise and tenon joint or traditional mortise and tenon joint. I have seen both from other guitar makers in the past. Since I know you love to skim and not read the whole thread before posting I will do a rundown of the photo I posted for you. I am re-posting this photo for you and will walk you through what we were discussing under the pic.

2f907794-c678-4069-acaf-3ac64bc8b27f.jpg


If you look at the picture I posted you will see a Guy working at Oxnard. The Guy working is holding right side up a Guitar form that looks like it is for a M20 body sized guitar. Inside that guitar form is a Guitar Rim. Attached to the inside of the guitar rim is a tail block on the bottom of the rim and a Neck Block on the top of the rim. If you look at the neck block on the top of the rim you will notice 2 countersunk Black bolts that are going through the installed neck block from the inside and through the top of the guitar rim with about a 1/2" of the threads protruding through the top of the guitar rim where the neck would be fit to the body. In the finished product there is a thin plank of wood with the serial number on it that covers the bottom of the neck block from the inside making it impossible to know if the bolts are still in the neck block or not without removing it.

Once again, My question was simply whether The Oxnard Made Guild D20/M20's had a Bolt on or Hybrid Bolt on neck joint. These are the first Guilds made at the Oxnard facility under Cordoba Ownership so all previously based assumptions, Guesses, or history of other brands including Previously made Guilds are really thrown out the window in reference to these new ones.:encouragement:

TX
 
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Rayk

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You right Tx no doubt about it .
Here's a vid if the M&S joint cut and install, kind of long but cool if have interest in building .

The end the vid shows the mounting

http://youtu.be/Oi9HVsVjtgE
 

adorshki

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You have been mightily surprised quite a bit lately with speculating and assuming Al.
Saying "I'd be surprised" is not speculation or assumption but an expression of opinion.
Since I know you love to skim and not read the whole thread before posting I will do a rundown of the photo I posted for you.
No, I read posts carefully which is not "skimming", although I have been guilty of posting before reading all...
I actually followed this whole thread since last week and I still don't see any screw threads protruding where you indicate.
That looks like a hole in the side of that metal piece to me, especially at 300x magnification on a 14" screen, after left-clicking on "open image in new tab".
Any takers?
 
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Rayk

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The heel block holes has screws in them from what I see when enlarged which is securing the aluminum block .
I can see the shadow of the Alan head or almost large Phillips head shape . Not sure if this is the disagreement?
But it fits the bolt on Mortise and tenden joint that Guild says they are using .
The above vid link confirms the application and process.
:)
 
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txbumper57

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Saying "I'd be surprised" is not speculation or assumption but an expression of opinion.
I'm sorry, I meant suspicion not speculate as in,

I suspect all it is, is what Gardman said about them simply being alignment aids

No, I read posts carefully which is not "skimming", although I have been guilty of posting before reading all...
I actually followed this whole thread since last week and I still don't see any screw threads protruding where you indicate.
That looks like a hole in the side of that metal piece to me, especially at 300x magnification on a 14" screen, after left-clicking on "open image in new tab".
Any takers?

No problem, I was making a sarcastic joke about the skimming as we all have done it. Sorry if it came off as something else and Each to their own. I was just trying to clarify the photo for you as I thought it might have been lost in translation throughout the thread. I can understand how you can see a hole in the metal part of the form above the neckblock instead of threads on a bolt. To me they still look like threads though.:pirate:

TX
 

adorshki

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\Not sure if this is the disagreement?
Yes I think it is but your input is appreciated.
I believe you do see details I can't.
But it fits the bolt on Mortise and tenon joint that Guild says they are using .
The above vid link confirms the application and process.
Vids problematic to me these days due to buffering issues, but thanks again.
I'm gonna go play in the street for a while.
You know the drill, I back off on weekends... Especially since I ain't talkin' to that Bumper dude no more.

Cover my back, willya?
:torn:
 
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