next Oxnard model announced ...

Rick Schmidlin · Dec 5, 2016

I have been great friends with Roy Noble who was one the first to put on bolt on necks when Bill Collings and Bob Taylor where still in their teen. When asked he said he could make a great guitar because Guilds,Martins and Gibson's were a pain in the neck to reset.
He said "After working on so so many vintage repairs he must has learned something." What he was doing in the early 60's was the follow the path that Guild was leading in giving players option. Clarence White play a Noble from 66' to 71."

SFIV1967 · May 28, 2017

I post in that old thread again as I now found a picture on Guild's site which clearly shows the Mortise and Tenon bolt on neck pocket on the D-20 or D40 bodies on the rack in Oxnard!
So M-20, D-20, M-40 and also the normal D-40 (satin finish) have a Mortise and Tenon bolt on neck whereas the D-40 Traditional and the D-55 have a Dovetail neck joint.

Ralf

txbumper57 · May 28, 2017

Nice find Ralf! After the whole "Not telling anyone about the Mortise and Tenon neck joint until the guitars have been on the market for a year" approach that Cordoba decided to use on the D20's/M20's and affiliated guitar models I am so glad that I didn't contribute to the cause by buying one. Personally I think that was a Snake in the Grass move on their part. But then again, What do you expect from a company that names their Cheap Chinese guitar line after the longest running American made Guild Factory location of all time. That should have been the first Red Flag (and it was for many) when they tried to "Blur the Lines" between the 'New" imports and the American Made Classic Guilds for market confusion. It will take a lot for Oxnard to ever get any of my money. I hate to say it because you almost never hear these words but I miss the days when Fender was calling the shots. At least they had grip on the Heritage of a Brand Name. One other note on that picture. What a Beautiful Center Seam in that D-55 top that the guy in the photo is holding! Think that will clean up any before finishing?

TX

jedzep · May 28, 2017

Makes me glad to be a Hoboken guy. For that matter, same with Kalamazoo.

JohnW63 · May 29, 2017

Let me ask some questions about this, to help my understanding and others feelings. I really don't know all the issues with neck attachment types. I used ot just grab a guitar and play it and never a thought about how it was constructed. So, here goes...

1) Who decided to build the first guitars they were going to make at Oxnard with a bolt on neck joint like the above ? Was it Ren ? I somehow doubt they ignored what he said and did it on their own, while allowing him to have free control over other aspects.

2) Given Taylor has used a bolt on neck for a long time, how does this style , shown in the picture, make things so bad ?

3) If it IS such a bad idea, why have these guitars not been panned for poor quality and tone because of it ?

fronobulax · May 29, 2017

txbumper57 said:
Nice find Ralf! After the whole "Not telling anyone about the Mortise and Tenon neck joint until the guitars have been on the market for a year" approach that Cordoba decided to use on the D20's/M20's and affiliated guitar models I am so glad that I didn't contribute to the cause by buying one. Personally I think that was a Snake in the Grass move on their part. But then again, What do you expect from a company that names their Cheap Chinese guitar line after the longest running American made Guild Factory location of all time. That should have been the first Red Flag (and it was for many) when they tried to "Blur the Lines" between the 'New" imports and the American Made Classic Guilds for market confusion. It will take a lot for Oxnard to ever get any of my money. I hate to say it because you almost never hear these words but I miss the days when Fender was calling the shots. At least they had grip on the Heritage of a Brand Name. One other note on that picture. What a Beautiful Center Seam in that D-55 top that the guy in the photo is holding! Think that will clean up any before finishing?

TX

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I even agree with parts of it, but you seem to be jumping to a lot of conclusions especially about motivation and cause and effect. Since you are often a reliable source, is there anything behind this besides your personal belief?

txbumper57 · May 29, 2017

fronobulax said:
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I even agree with parts of it, but you seem to be jumping to a lot of conclusions especially about motivation and cause and effect. Since you are often a reliable source, is there anything behind this besides your personal belief?

I am not trying to start WWIII Frono by any means. First off let me say this about a Mortise and Tenon neck joint. I personally don't like them but I know others that do and I will say that there is nothing wrong with a Mortise and Tenon neck joint guitar if that is what you want. However, Where I have a major issue is that Oxnard Marketed their M20/D20's as being True to the design and construction of the Vintage Guild models of the past, even going as far to make the connection that the M20/D20 was the first guitar models built at the Westerly Facility and they were doing the same at Oxnard. Never once on their website description did they mention that these guitars had a Mortise and Tenon neck joint. They implied that they were built as the Vintage Guild models the new ones embodied which all had Dovetail Neck joints as part of their Standard Construction design. Not only did they go out of their way to leave out that nugget of info but they didn't even tell their dealers about this design change as they were under the impression they were Dovetail neck joint guitars as well. I personally know of 2 dealers who were pretty upset when this came to light as they had already had the product on the floor and in customers hands for 6-8 months. People say there is no way you can tell the difference between a Dovetail Neck joint and a Mortise and tenon neck joint just by playing a guitar but I can, My luthier can without looking under the hood, and others I know can as well. I have played personally an Oxnard D20, M20, and a D40 Regular as they are calling it. I really wasn't impressed by any of them and the D20/M20 was played before the whole neck joint issue was brought to light. Of course this is just my Opinion.

Bottom line is this. There is nothing wrong with a Mortise and Tenon neck joint but if you are marketing a guitar as true to the original design and construction and then change a major part of that design and construction, shouldn't you at least mention it in the official description of the guitar? Possibly inform the Dealers that are selling your product about the design change? If I am paying for something I want the company selling it to be upfront and honest about what I am spending my money on. I don't think that is too much to ask.

People can think what they want to and I am not trying to make anyone's mind up for them, Just posting my opinion based off of what I have researched and seen first hand. Any conclusions you feel I may have "Jumped" to in my previous post are the result of all the variables that I have weighed carefully.

TX

dreadnut · May 29, 2017

Hey jedzep, at least we have Heritage Guitars in the old Gibson factory in Kalamazoo...

Back in the day, my buddy got a Gibson Mastertone 5-string banjo through his uncle who worked in the Kalamazoo factory, it was a truly awesome instrument.

Another friend of mine from high school owned a machine shop that made parts for Gibson in Kalamazoo; one day the purchasing agent from Gibson gave him a Les Paul for a token of their appreciation, this was in the late '70's.

tommym · May 29, 2017

For what it's worth, all of my Froggy Bottom guitars have bolt-on necks, and non hide glue construction.

I agree that Guild should be more open and upfront about the types of joints that they use on the various guitar, so that the consumer can make a more informed decision / purchase. Until then, I will be only buy Froggy Bottom's......:culpability:

Tommy

davismanLV · May 29, 2017

I agree, TX! Shouldn't that center seam be virtually invisible at this stage? I can't imagine finish will soften the effect but I guess I'll wait until I see the finished product. It jumped right out at me, though!!

Bill Ashton · May 29, 2017

I can only add this...

I own both Huss & Dalton and Collings guitars ( a DS and D2H), not "low end," which both have bolt-on necks. These are "lifetime guitars," not a problem with tone in either of them...I may not like the way the truss rod is adjusted in the Collings, but thats just the nature-of-the-brand.

At the Joe Val Festival in February I had my first chance to see the Oxnard-Guilds, as a vendor had them there. While I am not a stain-finish-person, there was nothing about them that I could say would push me away...in fact, in note-to-self, said to self to recommend them if someone was looking for a low-end high-end guitar...note, both local Guild dealers are no longer Guild dealers, though one is an authorized service station (WTF?)

I have used unimaginable self control not to travel to Newton Falls to look at the Guild line, as he said he did have a gloss-finished model there...

fronobulax · May 29, 2017

txbumper57 said:
I am not trying to start WWIII Frono by any means. First off let me say this about a Mortise and Tenon neck joint. I personally don't like them but I know others that do and I will say that there is nothing wrong with a Mortise and Tenon neck joint guitar if that is what you want. However, Where I have a major issue is that Oxnard Marketed their M20/D20's as being True to the design and construction of the Vintage Guild models of the past, even going as far to make the connection that the M20/D20 was the first guitar models built at the Westerly Facility and they were doing the same at Oxnard. Never once on their website description did they mention that these guitars had a Mortise and Tenon neck joint. They implied that they were built as the Vintage Guild models the new ones embodied which all had Dovetail Neck joints as part of their Standard Construction design. Not only did they go out of their way to leave out that nugget of info but they didn't even tell their dealers about this design change as they were under the impression they were Dovetail neck joint guitars as well. I personally know of 2 dealers who were pretty upset when this came to light as they had already had the product on the floor and in customers hands for 6-8 months. People say there is no way you can tell the difference between a Dovetail Neck joint and a Mortise and tenon neck joint just by playing a guitar but I can, My luthier can without looking under the hood, and others I know can as well. I have played personally an Oxnard D20, M20, and a D40 Regular as they are calling it. I really wasn't impressed by any of them and the D20/M20 was played before the whole neck joint issue was brought to light. Of course this is just my Opinion.

Bottom line is this. There is nothing wrong with a Mortise and Tenon neck joint but if you are marketing a guitar as true to the original design and construction and then change a major part of that design and construction, shouldn't you at least mention it in the official description of the guitar? Possibly inform the Dealers that are selling your product about the design change? If I am paying for something I want the company selling it to be upfront and honest about what I am spending my money on. I don't think that is too much to ask.

People can think what they want to and I am not trying to make anyone's mind up for them, Just posting my opinion based off of what I have researched and seen first hand. Any conclusions you feel I may have "Jumped" to in my previous post are the result of all the variables that I have weighed carefully.

TX

No problems and thanks for clarifying.

rwmct · May 29, 2017

txbumper57 said:
I hate to say it because you almost never hear these words but I miss the days when Fender was calling the shots. At least they had grip on the Heritage of a Brand Name.

I hear you. They should have been upfront about the neck joints. I am not qualified to say what is better, but when one thinks of Guild, one does not think of bolt on necks. I don't care what awesome guitars have them. I was hoping they would replicate the New Hartford guitars in Oxnard, as near as may be. Clearly, that is not what they are doing.

jazzmang · May 29, 2017

Agreed, I was a bit upset to see this neck joint type. This is what my $200 acoustic beater guitars use. Shame.

rwmct · May 29, 2017

jazzmang said:
Agreed, I was a bit upset to see this neck joint type. This is what my $200 acoustic beater guitars use. Shame.

The part that bothers me is that they tried to finesse the issue. They should have been upfront about it. Explained that as a cost saving measure the less expensive models did not get the traditional style neck. They still would have got some negative reaction from traditionalists, but they would not have left people with a bad impression of their dependability. I am completely certain that they tried to finesse this on purpose. They should never try to finesse something about the construction of their guitars.

It reminds me of boat builders who still use wood in the construction of their boats. A lot of manufacturers don't anymore, because it can rot. But several still do, and if it is treated and encapsulated right, it tends to hold up fine. But a lot of buyers don't want boats with wood in them, and some manufacturers have tried to finesse the issue, referring to their construction as "all composite" (plywood being a composite).

If there is something about your construction methods that will turn off a fair segment of buyers, the best approach is to be upfront about it, not have people find out about it on internet discussion forums. People who will then mistrust your business.

txbumper57 · May 30, 2017

One other issue I had was that they clearly tried to hide the holes in the neck block that people would easily see on finished guitars by making a Wood cap that has the serial number on it. The way they went about the installation of this wood cap was to try and make it appear to be part of the neck block itself and make the neck block appear solid at a passing glance like on a dovetail joint guitar. The more you look at it though the more you realize that is just a cover to hide the neck joint construction. To me that is deliberate, I mean is it really possible they covered up the joint inside the body by accident? Personally I don't think so. Once again, Just my opinion.

TX

FNG · May 30, 2017

Ever notice how on every FS ad everyone always talks about checking the neck angle, and then how much a neck reset costs, who can do them right, and how hard it is to reset the necks on Guild guitars?

wileypickett · May 30, 2017

Veer, but great to see Joe Val's name here -- I caught him and his band live in the Boston-area many times in the late '70s and '80s -- always great!

Bill Ashton said:
At the Joe Val Festival in February I had my first chance to see the Oxnard-Guilds. . . .

adorshki · May 30, 2017

FNG said:
Ever notice how on every FS ad everyone always talks about checking the neck angle, and then how much a neck reset costs, who can do them right, and how hard it is to reset the necks on Guild guitars?

Right and that's one more tradition that's threatened by the blatant Cordoba cover-up.
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:biggrin-new:

curbucci · May 30, 2017

Regardless of all this I'm looking forward to tying out the M20. Maybe even picking one up.

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