Anybody following the "Stairway to Heaven" trial?

walrus · Jun 18, 2016

Jimmy Page and Robert Plant have been in court the past few days (and JP Jones made a visit, too), to fight a lawsuit that they plagiarized Spirit's "Taurus" when writing "Stairway to Heaven". Of course, they have a reputation of "using" old blues tunes, but this one seems really a stretch. One wonders why now, over 40 years later...

"Money" seems like a reasonable answer.

Here's the song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHaEAanPDpc

And here's the latest update on the trial:

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/n...s-ugly-as-plaintiffs-rest-their-case-20160618

It's actually sort of interesting, but as as been said before - all music is in some ways derivative of other music, so one hopes lawsuits don't take over the music writing industry.

walrus

F312 · Jun 18, 2016

My Sweet Lord Do Rang Do Rang Do Rang
Ralph

walrus · Jun 18, 2016

Yes, that song is mentioned in the article with a few other "classics". This lawsuit is nowhere near as obvious (to me, anyway). "Heaven" has so many other parts to the song than that one little snippet the lawsuit is about, and the section is not exactly the same anyway.

Even though IMHO I think George should not have lost that lawsuit, he "copied" the repetitive chorus - so much easier to argue about!

walrus

Brad Little · Jun 19, 2016

I read years ago that Randy California thought there was no reason to sue and the suit only proceeded after his death. His mother has/had some input.

The Guilds of Grot · Jun 19, 2016

In my opinion this is total BS!

Watch the YouTube attached.

Yes both songs have finger picking guitar, but, anybody with a pair of ears can hear that the Stairway to Heaven progression is an ascending scale (goes up in pitch). The Taurus progression is a descending scale and goes down in pitch.

Here are transcriptions of both songs:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...-analysis-w-sheet-music-transcription.355201/

I hope Zepplin doesn't get the same type of tone deaf jury that Robin Thicke and Pharrell got with Blurred Lines. They totally ignored all of the factual evidence and declared; "They sound exactly the same!".

davismanLV · Jun 19, 2016

There are only so many notes, combinations of notes, and rhythms that you can arrange them in. Considering how long music has been around and how much music has been produced, I think there's nothing new under the sun. Listening to Kurt's video above, I can hear some similarities. But that's all. They're not the same song. But someone wants some money......

Neal · Jun 19, 2016

I think the most problematic thing is the timing. Led was touring with Spirit for a little while, after Spirit had recorded the riff, but before Jimmy started playing it.

And the riff both ascends and descends simultaneously on Stairway to Heaven. The exact same notes are there, if you listen for them.

Of course, the Spirit riff is followed by crap, while in Stairway to Heaven, it is followed by greatness!

AcornHouse · Jun 19, 2016

There was an interview on NPR that I heard Friday with a musicologist. He was listing piece after piece through the centuries that had similar progressions. Including "My Funny Valentine" (sing it to the opening to Stairway; lots of fun!)

Lots of progressions have made the rounds.

davismanLV · Jun 19, 2016

AcornHouse said:
Lots of progressions have made the rounds.

Yeah, kinda what I was saying. And musicians (well, good ones) share and enjoy and .... the only grief comes with MONEY and POWER. The two evil things..... so what do we do in our sophisticated times??

nthego:

JohnW63 · Jun 19, 2016

There is another suit going on about song stealing as well. 20 million worth.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ed-shee...aph-by-songwriters-of-amazing-by-matt-cardle/

I don't hear the supposed 70% of the same notes and duration stuff they claim. There in different keys as well.

Quantum Strummer · Jun 20, 2016

IMO you can just as persuasively argue that both Page and Randy California borrowed from Davey Graham in creating the basic Taurus/Stairway chord progression. One much like it is in Graham's Cry Me A River. This version is from 1959:

https://youtu.be/tWeejHJxGjs

Led Zep was certainly guilty of borrowing music and lyrics without giving credit. But I think going too far in the opposite direction—not performing or recording particular pieces of music inspired by other music for fear of getting sued—stifles creativity. In this case I wouldn't rule in favor of the Spirit estate.

-Dave-

walrus · Jun 20, 2016

JohnW63 said:
There is another suit going on about song stealing as well. 20 million worth.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ed-shee...aph-by-songwriters-of-amazing-by-matt-cardle/

I don't hear the supposed 70% of the same notes and duration stuff they claim. There in different keys as well.

This is the same attorney who got a previous big "win":

"Busch famously helped Marvin Gaye's family win a $5.3 million copyright lawsuit over its use in Robin Thicke's 2013 summer anthem, "Blurred Lines. I think that case has been very influential in getting attorneys interested in pursuing these claims," said Matt Belloni, executive editor of the Hollywood Reporter."

I boldfaced the key phrase, which adds to what Tom is saying. No offense to any LTG members who are lawyers, but this can't be a good thing for songwriters and musicians.

Forget "ambulance chasing" - "songwriter chasing", anyone?

walrus

mavuser · Jun 20, 2016

what a ****ing joke

adorshki · Jun 20, 2016

walrus said:
Forget "ambulance chasing" - "songwriter chasing", anyone?

Well this is easy.
All musicians should be required to pay for plagiarism suit insurance, as a deduction from royalties, or else pay a tax penalty every year for not carrying the insurance.

Westerly Wood · Jun 20, 2016

oh, but when you hear them played on top of one another, you can hear it, I can anyway. I say give them a couple hundred bucks for the opening approach to a song.

The Guilds of Grot · Jun 20, 2016

A little more insight:

The Guilds of Grot · Jun 20, 2016

To go with the above:

walrus · Jun 20, 2016

Supposedly, the suit can be resolved for $1, if Plant/Page agree to give the California estate writing credit, not just an "inspired by". But I can see why they are not taking that (yet, at least) - there's a lot more to that song than those few seconds!

And to state the obvious, the writing credit would be worth millions....

walrus

The Guilds of Grot · Jun 20, 2016

walrus said:
Supposedly, the suit can be resolved for $1, if Plant/Page agree to give the California estate writing credit, not just an "inspired by". But I can see why they are not taking that (yet, at least) - there's a lot more to that song than those few seconds!

And to state the obvious, the writing credit would be worth millions....

walrus

And the monies from the writing credits would supposedly go the the Randy California Musical Fund (or some such) to provide musical instruments and lessons to underprivileged schools across California.

fronobulax · Jun 21, 2016

adorshki said:
Well this is easy.
All musicians should be required to pay for plagiarism suit insurance, as a deduction from royalties, or else pay a tax penalty every year for not carrying the insurance.

Sure. Right after streaming companies are required to pay royalties that exceed the cost of the insurance by at least 50%.

Anybody following the "Stairway to Heaven" trial?

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