Early M-85

txbumper57

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Is it just me or is the Bridge mounted too far to the treble side of the Bass? The strings are way off the poles on the pickups and there is an awful lot of free space on the Bass side of the fretboard. Normally I would think the neck had shifted but the strings look off all the way up the guitar. Maybe stripped out a Bridge mounting screw and just moved it over a bit? Or is it supposed to be that way? I'm not schooled up on my basses as much as I should be.

TX
 

hansmoust

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Is it just me or is the Bridge mounted too far to the treble side of the Bass? The strings are way off the poles on the pickups and there is an awful lot of free space on the Bass side of the fretboard. Normally I would think the neck had shifted but the strings look off all the way up the guitar. Maybe stripped out a Bridge mounting screw and just moved it over a bit? Or is it supposed to be that way? I'm not schooled up on my basses as much as I should be.

TX

Haven't seen the guitar, but it seems to me that the wooden saddles have simply shifted to the treble side. You should be able to slide them back into place, starting with the low E-string; maybe use a drop of plastic glue in the saddle's bottom slot to keep 'm from sliding sideways.

And by the way, the instrument is from 1970!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 

gilded

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Haven't seen the guitar, but it seems to me that the wooden saddles have simply shifted to the treble side. You should be able to slide them back into place, starting with the low E-string; maybe use a drop of plastic glue in the saddle's bottom slot to keep 'm from sliding sideways.

And by the way, the instrument is from 1970!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

Hans, I think it's more than shifting the saddles. That would be a symptomatic repair. The neck has fallen into the cutaway, or the bridge is off, or both. Seller also says no returns. Caveat Emptor.
 

txbumper57

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Haven't seen the guitar, but it seems to me that the wooden saddles have simply shifted to the treble side. You should be able to slide them back into place, starting with the low E-string; maybe use a drop of plastic glue in the saddle's bottom slot to keep 'm from sliding sideways.

And by the way, the instrument is from 1970!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

It seems to be more than Saddle shift as the strings look pretty straight from the bridge to the saddles. If anything the saddle on the low E is shifted to the left a bit to try and counter the problem. Also in one of the close up shots of the bridge the upper Bass side mounting screw seems to be backed out of the hole by about 1/4"(last pic right under the Low E Saddle). The treble side of the bridge also seems to be overlapping the bottom of the bridge pickup edge instead of mounting flush(First Pic). Here are a few pics to see the situation.

s-l1600.jpg
s-l1600.jpg
s-l1600.jpg
 
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fronobulax

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Bridge looks fine to me. If we are talking about the fact that the treble end of the harp seems to overlap with the pickup, possibly enough to limit how low the bridge can go, we have seen that on stock basses from the time. I'm thinking Jack Casady's second proto-Alembic Starfire is like that and BA-1682

BA-1682.JPG


might have it and BA-177x definitely does.

BA-1770_.JPG


I am pretty sure we have discussed this positioning before and mavuser has postulated that it is related to just when in the build process and instrument was designated to leave the factory as a II instead of I. I think he was persuasive that there are several M85-II's that were converted from M85-I's and they exhibit this overlap as a result.
 

mavuser

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I am pretty sure we have discussed this positioning before and mavuser has postulated that it is related to just when in the build process and instrument was designated to leave the factory as a II instead of I. I think he was persuasive that there are several M85-II's that were converted from M85-I's and they exhibit this overlap as a result.


that is kinda what I said, close at least.

in this case I am only refrring to the first generation, semi-solid/"chambered" deeper-bodied M-85 bass, (and not the later solid body skinny one).

The M-85 bass is a rare beast and each one of them is seemingly a little different than the next (from the factory). with the M-85 the rulebook was completely thrown out the window, even a handfull of them wound up with one Hagstrom Bisonic and one Guild Humbucker on the same bass- that configuration is the most obvious giveaway that it started as an M-85 I, turned to a II. but more common is seeing an M-85 II with the suck switch in the middle of all the knobs, exactly where it is located on the M-85 I. These M-85-II's, or at least part(s) they were made from, were anywhere from "possibly" to "likely" originaly designed as M-85-I's and somewhere along the way (possibly after completion, etc) Guild made them M-85-II's.

The location of the bridge likely never changed (IMO). On the M-85-II, the location of the bridge pickup also never changed, thus the top/treble side of the bridge does just overlap a tiny bit over the housing of the bridge pickup. Even the GSR M-85-II reissues in 2013/2014 from NH are that way!

It is the vintage Starfire II bass from the 60s that has slight bridge pickup location variation. some of them have the pickup as far back as possible like the M-85-II, but others have the bridge pickup about 1/8 of a inch closer to the neck, indifferent of the suck switch (which btw did not change locations on the SF bass, but is not on all of them). My thinking here is that some uncompleted (or completed for that matter) Starfire I basses were also converted to SF II's...some of them originally being bridge position SF-I's (as well as neck position SF-I's). Either that or there is simply variation due to variation in instruments/tools/measurements/individual preference of the builder etc. it may have just changed at some point, maybe even because of the bridge, who knows.

which brings us to the bridge. I believe the earlier straight bridge would clear the bridge pickup on both the M-85-II and the SF-II basses. But, when the harp bridge replaced the straight one, there were barely any SF-II's or M-85-II's- those came along right around the same time as the harp bridge, as well as the suck switch. I believe the issue of the bridge overlapping the pickup was likely acknowledged but deemed acceptable at the time, and they just left it that way. They would have had to modify all of those new bridges they just bought, or else relocate the bridge on all those instruments...I am with them, I think it's fine the way it is. and I think the rosewood saddles really add to the tone of Guild basses.
 

mavuser

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Also to be clear this bass for sale that is the subject of this thread, has the suck switch "outside the box" so was never completed as an M-85-I. it also has the larger headstock and therefore is definitely not from 1968, as Hans clarified above. Being from 1970, with the suck switch where it is, and the standard master volume, it looks like an M-85-II "from birth" (but I am just speculating).
 

mavuser

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exhibit A:

-suck switch in M-85-I location
-no master vol
-pickup selector in alternate location

evxUdr.jpg


conclusion: was possibly/likely completed as an M-85-I, and converted to an M-85-II thereafter by Guild/factory prior to being sold retail (or at the point of sale, special order etc.)

pretty sure it was Frono actually that told me about this!
 

hansmoust

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It seems to be more than Saddle shift as the strings look pretty straight from the bridge to the saddles. If anything the saddle on the low E is shifted to the left a bit to try and counter the problem.
s-l1600.jpg

Tx,

The strings are not supposed to go straight from the point where they are anchored at the tailpiece and going to the saddles; they're supposed to flare out, so the low-E saddle should go even further to the left. Actually, all four saddles need to shift to the bass-side; right now the G saddle is almost over the edge of the tailpiece base plate. There should be at least 1/8 of an inch room between the G saddle and the edge of the base plate.
The intonation adjustment screws are supposed to be about in the middle of the saddle width!

Also in one of the close up shots of the bridge the upper Bass side mounting screw seems to be backed out of the hole by about 1/4".

There are only 2 tailpiece mounting screws; the ones near the bottom. The other 2 are to adjust the height of the tailpiece (and thereby the strings), so they should be sticking out somewhat depending on the adjusted height!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 
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txbumper57

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Tx,

The strings are not supposed to go straight from the point where they are anchored at the tailpiece and going to the saddles; they're supposed to flare out, so the low-E saddle should go even further to the left. Actually, all four saddles need to shift to the bass-side; right now the G saddle is almost over the edge of the tailpiece base plate. There should be at least 1/8 of an inch room between the G saddle and the edge of the base plate.
The intonation adjustment screws are supposed to be about in the middle of the saddle width!



There are only 2 tailpiece mounting screws; the ones near the bottom. The other 2 are to adjust the height of the tailpiece (and thereby the strings), so they should be sticking out somewhat depending on the adjusted height!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

OH I get it! The two screws in the bottom of the bridge are for mounting to the body, The two screws up from that are for height adjustment, and the 4 individual screws under the saddles are for intonation, Correct? See, I told you I was learning my Basses! Thanks for the lesson!

TX
 
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