Finishes

DThomasC

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LOL.
They been workin' on cow farts for years, literally since the '70's.
Yeah I thought it was ridiculous at first too, but:
Supposed to be the single biggest source of methane on the planet. 'Nother ozone depleter.
First thing ya gotta remember is not to smoke around 'em:

images

This may become fashionable some day:

cow-gas-tank-404_686141c.jpg
 

amnicon

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'75 D40 absolutely NCL, assuming it's original finish.

...


Quick side note, I just realized I think you made a typo re the date of your GAD-D25; they weren't introduced until '04.
You hava an '06, perhaps?

Thanks adorshki, I appreciate your know-how. I've always found the 40 year old finish on the D40 interesting. I appreciate the details.
Not so much a typo on the GAD25 as not thinking hard enough. It is a '96.
 

adorshki

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Thanks adorshki, I appreciate your know-how. I've always found the 40 year old finish on the D40 interesting. I appreciate the details.
Not so much a typo on the GAD25 as not thinking hard enough. It is a '96.
Hi Amnicon, still not sure if you just repeated your typo or if you're not using the correct model number for a '96 D25.
A "GAD 25" can't be a '96, the GAD line wasn't in existence yet.
"GAD" stood for Guild Acoustic Design and was the name Fender used for a line of Made-in-China instruments introduced in the spring 2004 price list, and the GAD-D25 (the correct name) was one of the first models, replacing the US -built model.
If it has a Westerly label and an arched back then it's a D25.
In Corona they re-introduced the flat-back mahogany-top version for a couple of years before introducing the MIC version.
 
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amnicon

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GAAAA! I am losing my mind. Even when trying to explain my mistake correctly I make a mistake! Yes, it is a GAD for sure, from '06 if I've understood the GAD dating that was on here some time. So sorry for the confusion...
 

guru jr.

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I had a little time this morning, so I thought I'd weigh in. Let's be clear: no one is using the NCL finish that they used 10 years ago. The Seagraves Company made the lacquer that went on most US built nitro guitars since the '70's (maybe late '60s). They went out of business earlier this decade and everyone had to scramble to find a finish that had the same formulation and characteristics. Unfortunately Seagraves had no interest in releasing the formula at the time, so alternates had to be found. This stuff actually has a shelf life, especially if you are using it in a production environment. At Guild, we had a pretty good supply and we found some custom finishes that worked well. No word if this knowledge made it to Oxnard, but now Behlen has a product they claim is the same.
Oxnard bought the brand-new SOTA Guild spray booth and shipped it to CA lock, stock and scrubbers intact. When I talked to Ren last January, they were still having permitting issues to spray VOC's. The introduction of the new model tells me they finally got that issue solved.
 

adorshki

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At Guild, we had a pretty good supply and we found some custom finishes that worked well. No word if this knowledge made it to Oxnard, but now Behlen has a product they claim is the same.
Oxnard bought the brand-new SOTA Guild spray booth and shipped it to CA lock, stock and scrubbers intact. When I talked to Ren last January, they were still having permitting issues to spray VOC's. The introduction of the new model tells me they finally got that issue solved.
Nothing like "Straight from the horse's mouth."
Thank You!!
 

bobouz

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Yes, very interesting info.

Having owned many Gibsons, at some point I realized that their supply of nitro finish might at times have been more ideally stable than at other times. Some folks will inevitably be frustrated if their new guitar develops finish checks in fairly short order, but along with nitro finishes being susceptible to environmental changes, it's pretty clear from the above post that we've long been at the mercy of what suppliers are providing.

I happen to have a quart of the Behlen nitro finish for touch up work ,and it's labeled "Stringed Instrument Lacquer - Meets State & Federal VOC Standards." It's great that we at can at least get the stuff!
 
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adorshki

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Yes, very interesting info.
Having owned many Gibsons, at some point I realized that their supply of nitro finish might at times have been more ideally stable than at other times.
Did you see the reference to the Gibson finish issues related to introducing automated spraying, by Bruce Bennet, in the thread I linked? Looks like post #15 if I counted correctly, but it's easy to spot, it starts off: "I'll make a few basic generalizations about Gibsons current finishing issues.."
And I do note the thread itself dates back to 2013 and the issues he describes go back to 2008, but it also points up how finish problems can be due to more than just the finish itself..just pointing it out in case you hadn't read it yet.
 

chazmo

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Hey, Kim, when did that Guild paint booth come into play in New Hartford? Was it ever used? I'm assuming I/we never saw that during LMG events, did I/we?
 

kostask

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There is noting particularly special about the nitro available 10 years ago, or in the 1960s. Nor os Seagraves the only company that has ever provided good quality nitor. Good quality nitro has been used at least as far back as the 1930s if not earlier. Many of the "holy grail" guitars are from the pre-WWII time period, and I am sure that mot all of them were finished with Seagraves nitro.

Nitro is available up here in Canada. It is not Seagraves. The finish is both as glossy, if not glossier than any guitar from the 1970s, and is both thinner and most likely has lower sound muffling characteristics than any 1970s guitars. There is nothing magical about Seagraves lacquer, nor does Behlen. There are probably dozens of suppliers aroudn the world that can supply instrument quality nitro. The choice of Seagraves was based mainly on economics most likely; other factors had an influence, things like compatibility with spraying equipment, final gloss, and other less minor factors. The "scrambling" as you described it was due to the spray process being optimized for the Seagraves lacquer; the other, equally usable lacquers would have needed some changes to the spray process and a learning curve, something extremely undesirable in a factory environment.

All nitor has a shelf life, you can't prevent it from outgassing.
 

bobouz

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Did you see the reference to the Gibson finish issues related to introducing automated spraying, by Bruce Bennet, in the thread I linked? Looks like post #15 if I counted correctly, but it's easy to spot, it starts off: "I'll make a few basic generalizations about Gibsons current finishing issues.."
And I do note the thread itself dates back to 2013 and the issues he describes go back to 2008, but it also points up how finish problems can be due to more than just the finish itself..just pointing it out in case you hadn't read it yet.

Thanks Al, I had missed that, and yes, the human factor in general & turnover would certainly be significant. Bennet appears to be referring specifically to Gibson's Nashville facility, which now focuses primarily on solid body instruments. Memphis does the hollowbodies, and Bozeman the acoustics. Over the years, I've seen finish issues with all three factories, but seemingly more from Nashville.
 

Quantum Strummer

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All nitro has a shelf life, you can't prevent it from outgassing.

The finish on my old Gretsch has outgassed to the point that there's little left besides the orange/red pigment. To the touch it feels like bare wood.

-Dave-
 

docfishr

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Back in 1973 I purchased a new Gibson dreadnought called a "Blueridge". That guitar had a finish so thick it was like looking at the wood though a sheet of glass. I don't know for certain but I suspect it was Poly. I used to take it on camping/fishing trips and abused the hell out of it. Campfires, rain, even a hail storm. That sucker was bullet proof. Over the years as I came to appreciate tone qualities I began to suspect that thick and durable finish was causing a lot of tonal problems so with all the bravado and naivety of youth I decided to "fix" it. I took off the bridge and pick guard, completely stripped the top (yes, I left the back and sides alone) then sanded it lightly and over several days applied a french polish style shellac finish until I achieved a respectable shine. I had traced the outline of bridge and pick guard and masked them off so I could re-glue to bare wood. When finished (pun intended), looking at the guitar straight-on so you could not see the sides it had what I thought was a cool "vintage" look. And it sounded like a different guitar. The clarity and tonal response difference was remarkable. Sometimes you eat the bear......

But all that aside what I want to ask here with all this discussion of the effects on tone of various finishes and thicknesses of finish is this.
What is the effect of plastic pick guards especially the larger ones Guild uses? It would seem that gluing a sheet of plastic on would also diminish the ability of the top to move freely. Yes? No?
 

adorshki

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Back in 1973 I purchased a new Gibson dreadnought called a "Blueridge". That guitar had a finish so thick it was like looking at the wood though a sheet of glass. I don't know for certain but I suspect it was Poly.
Sure sounds like it, also no pun intended, the real clue was "bulletproof" ...:friendly_wink:
I think those were Japanese built as an economy model, right? So poly would also help keep cost down.
What is the effect of plastic pick guards especially the larger ones Guild uses? It would seem that gluing a sheet of plastic on would also diminish the ability of the top to move freely. Yes? No?
Last time this came up it was about the possible muting effect of Guild's once-popular double pickguards option.
What I regarded as the credible informed opinion was: "minimal effect", but I forget exactly who said it. I think someone like Christopher Cozad or Acornhouse, both of whom are builders.
The reason given was that by far the largest percentage of top resonance is produced in the lower bout below the bridge.
I used to wonder if that might have been part of the reason why my D40 from Corona was the sonic runt of the litter at first, because I installed the second 'guard.
It also has the thickest and glassiest finish of the 3 so for a while I even wondered if it might be an undisclosed experiment with poly but later found out for sure it was nitro.
It also has what I call a "massive" bridge compared to the other 2, now I suspect that's to help with tone of UST.
In any case it holds its own with the other 2 now, except for sustain, but that's the nature of a flatback.
It did take about 8 years and about 200 hours of play time to find its real voice though.
(I put that much time on the D25 in the first yearand it hit full bloom.)
Finish on D40 still looks glassy, but it's starting to show the first faint signs of shrinking into the grain.
I think they might have used more pore filler in Corona to get it so smooth?
It's also stored inside case and never goes outdoors so has outgassed very slowly.
Both of the others had very thin Westerly finishes to start and now the finishes are shrinking into the woodgrain on the top, the most evident on the D25 which has spent literally over 1200 hours outside its case, the F65ce much less so because it's also spent the largest percentage of life in its case and only been out of the house like 3 times.
The finish on my old Gretsch has outgassed to the point that there's little left besides the orange/red pigment. To the touch it feels like bare wood.

-Dave-
Wonderful.
See, I think that's what all us nitro loyalists hope to achieve eventually, and just like, er, uhhhh...... barbecue, yeah that's it, barbecue , the longer and slower the better! :biggrin-new:
 
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bobouz

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Sure sounds like it, also no pun intended, the real clue was "bulletproof" ...:friendly_wink:
I think those were Japanese built as an economy model, right? So poly would also help keep cost down.

Actually, the Blue Ridge was made in Kalamazoo, and should have had a nitro finish. To my knowledge, there has never been a Gibson labeled instrument made outside of the USA, other than a short run of instruments made in Canada after Gibson purchased the Garrison factory.
 

adorshki

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Actually, the Blue Ridge was made in Kalamazoo, and should have had a nitro finish. To my knowledge, there has never been a Gibson labeled instrument made outside of the USA, other than a short run of instruments made in Canada after Gibson purchased the Garrison factory.
Noted, thanks!
Thought it was the fore-runner of the Sagas due to name similarity.
Have seen a couple over the years but didn't pay attention to branding.
I'm sure you're right about nitro, but geeze, wonder what was in that batch?
 

Christopher Cozad

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…Last time this came up it was about the possible muting effect of Guild's once-popular double pickguards option.
What I regarded as the credible informed opinion was: "minimal effect", but I forget exactly who said it. I think someone like Christopher Cozad or Acornhouse, both of whom are builders.


The reason given was that by far the largest percentage of top resonance is produced in the lower bout below the bridge…


As a youngster I loved the sound of John Denver’s F-50R, and it had the double pickguards. I argued, unfruitfully for years, that the extra cellulose did nothing to help or hurt the tone. So-called purists were adamant that pickguards, in general, were tone killers and twin pickguards were downright sacrilegious. We watched the popularity of the pickguard-less guitar rise, though I am uncertain as to whether or not the “tone killer” argument was ever responsible for the aesthetic shift. Regardless, many players learned the hard way to appreciate the benefit of the pickguard (or, perhaps more aptly named, the strum guard). Avid strummers readily scrubbed their way right through the soundboard. I play with fingernails and an occasional thumbpick, so I don't personally benefit from a pickguard, but I have nothing against one, either.


Wait...have I just veered during my own veer? LOL


To your point, Al: As you well know, the sound of an acoustic guitar is generated primarily from the top (front, face, soundboard, etc.) and the area of the top most responsible for tone, the prime real estate (or beach front property - as Kent Everett calls it), is the area between the bridge and the tail. This is true whether the instrument is conventionally X-braced, or is an archtop, or is a more modern “free top” (such as a McPherson or Batson). It should go without saying that every component of an acoustic guitar contributes to the guitar’s overall sound. However, as a contributor to overall tone, the upper bout region of the top is insignificant when contrasted directly with the lower bout. You can easily test this, non-destructively: Purchase a self-adhesive pickguard and affix it to the lower bout. It will kill your tone. By contrast, feel free to affix pickguards, decals, wood chips, cat fur, etc. to that area of the top from the waist to the neck block, without fear of “deadening” the sound of your guitar. That simply won’t happen.


Addressing the thread: Most luthiers seem to agree that the best sounding finish on an acoustic guitar is no finish at all, but also agree that some finish is better than none as, left unfinished, wooden instruments are simply too susceptible to damage. There has been some postulation that a finish can actually assist in telegraphing the sound waves across the top though, to my knowledge, this has not been established. All things being equal, the finish plays one of the least significant roles in the overall tone of the guitar. At best it is a prophylactic and, in most cases, a beautifier. The quantifiable factors most affecting the (acoustic) tone / sound output of the guitar are:


1.) Design - Size, shape, bracing, etc., by far the biggest contributor.
2.) Materials - Wood, carbon fiber, plastics, etc. Design is far more critical than material.
3.) Strings - Everybody knows that “dead” strings make the finest instruments sound pretty awful.
4.) Finish - Sprayed on, brushed on or rubbed on, finish has some impact on the overall sound, but surprisingly less than most believe.
 

kostask

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Finish, of any type always detratct from tone. It doesn't "transmit" anything. It adds weight and damping to the guitar's soundboard. The thinner the finish, the lighter it is. The harder the finish, the less damping it adds to the top. That is why, over time, a nitro finish will have a less and less detrimental effect on tone. Poly finishes will never have more or less detriemnt, the will always have the same detriment as the day they were catalyzed.

If you can find a local hand builder that will let you listen to a guitar pre- and post- finish, the effects on tone will be obvious. I challenge anybody who is postulating that finish ( I don't care what type) can improve the sound of a guitar using that exact same method. My bet would be that they can't.
 
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adorshki

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Noted, thanks!
Thought it was the fore-runner of the Sagas due to name similarity.
Have seen a couple over the years but didn't pay attention to branding.
I'm sure you're right about nitro, but geeze, wonder what was in that batch?
On reflection I realized that nitro can be quite durable if thick enough, after all, it was used on autos for about 50 years and those paint jobs probably got subjected to a lot heavier abuse than just about any guitar ever did, so "bulletproof" could very well be true for a thick nitro finish on a guitar.
 
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