Has anyone ever seen this pick guard before?

PH_Graphics

Junior Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
64
Reaction score
13
Location
Grafton, Wisconsin, USA
Hans also had previously said. "That particular pickup was obtained from Hagstrom, who supplied Guild with several other pickups and hardware during the '60s and early '70s."
And: "Like most magnetic pickups for acoustic flat top guitars from that period, it didn't sound all that good."Ralf

If it were up to me I would have amended that quote to "Like most magnetic pickups for acoustic flat top guitars from that period, it sounded awful."

That's why I didn't shed any tears (at the time) over removing it and trying to fix the overall appearance by losing the pots, too.

I just posted a reply to GardMan regarding my latest thoughts on replacing the pickup. I did not, in that answer, go into my reasoning on replacement vs. removing all signs that it ever existed.

I'm leaning on putting something in place of the original pickup for a very simple reason: it says "electric" on the label, and that will never change. And if I'm going to put something there it seems to me that is should be the most functional solution possible. Since Guilds are generally bought by players, not collectors, it seems to me that the most functional answer is to put in a really high quality pickup, as long as that pickup could be reasonably easily removed and replaced with the original if a future owner wanted that. As for the remainder of my ownership term, I hated the sound of that original pickup from 1979 to 1988, so there is no (functional) reason I'd want to put it back now.

I should mention that for my present use I have no need for a pickup. Literally all of the local people I used to play with have either moved away or passed away, so for 5 years this guitar has been played in one of 2 venues: my home theater room and my back yard. It has more than enough unamplified volume for both settings. And in the unlikely event that I do start playing in public again, it seems to me that a good-sounding pickup will be a better option than one that sounds awful.

As for the pot holes, my current thinking is this: I've done a lot of woodworking in my life and I can't image that even a great luthier, without spending an inordinate amount of time, could patch those holes to the point of being invisible. As long as there is going to be some vestige of them left, I'm leaning toward a repair which is somewhat less visually optimal, but has the advantage of being instantly and easily reversed by a new owner if they want to reinstall the old pots. As a visual homage to the original knobs, and in order to accommodate that instant reversibility, here is what I'm thinking:
1. Lift the current shooting star cover;
2. Drill/file/sand to get the holes as round as possible and the edges as clean as possible;
3. Have suitable-sized discs made of MOP, abalone, ebony or rosewood (pick one) to fill those holes.
4. Shim the discs so that they are the EXACT thickness of the spruce top;
5. Use simple low-adhesive tape on the inside of the spruce top to tape the discs into place. NO GLUE.

Reopening the holes, if that's ever desired, is then no more involved than reaching in, removing the tape and poking out the plugs. Yes, a collector would gasp, but I've given them a simple way of undoing the plugs. As for me, I can't imaging it will hurt the sound, and visually it would be orders of magnitude better and simpler than what's there now.

Having said all of that, I'm no luthier, so is there a flaw in my basic thinking?
 
Last edited:

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
That was my first thought, too, but I'm now leaning toward putting on a good, modern pickup if I can find one which:
1. Will fit where the old one was;
2. Is made of wood (preferably rosewood);
3. Looks as much as possible like the original;
4. Has no pots - just a direct connection to the existing jack;
5. Could be swapped out relatively easily by the next owner if they wanted to go back to the original pickup

I doubt the "easily swapped" criteria can even be met, if the pickup's installed where the original was.
I suggest contacting Jacobs Custom Guitars run by our member Fixit (Tom) who also worked at Guild in the mid-'80's and is an authorized Guild repair center:
http://www.jacobscustomguitars.com/
He could probably give a lot better advice about those questions.
Just for the sake of giving equal time, another member was veteran of New Hartford, contact info in first post of this thread:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?187549-Repairs-and-Restorations/page2

anyone suggest a pickup which meets those criteria? The only one I've found so far is this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rosewood-Ma...681568?hash=item280eb8c3a0:g:dUgAAOSwk1JWg34C
but I'm very leery of buying on eBay - particularly when I don't know anything thing about the quality of the item or the seller.
These days I'd worry more about quality than seller's integrity. eBay's got a lot of buyer protection procedures.
But I just want to be sure you realize that pickup's intended to be mounted in the soundhole itself and would probably be easily removable but installing it where the original was may not be easy.
NOT THAT I DO A LOT OF SHOPPING< But that's the only way I've seen wood pickups for many years now, "Soundhole mount".

That's why I suggested trying to find your original for best "look" but using an undersaddle for best quality and simplicity. Those are also pretty easily swapped if a prospective buyer has a different preference in pickups.
Also pretty economical and lots of choices and can go right to endpin jack.
I'd be surprised if you could easily find an original Hagstrom (thanks Ralf!) but it couldn't hurt to contact our guru Hans Moust:
http://www.guitarchives.nl/guitarsgalore/

Other than that you are right that I can't make detailed plans until the current pick guard is lifted. It does seem, though, that one way or another I'll need at least a proper bridge and pick guard. I see both (referred to as "traditional") on the current Guild parts website, but what have other LTGers done in this situation in the past, buy new Guild parts or hunt down authentic vintage parts?
Some of those original parts like possibly your bridge are simply no longer available but can be replicated from specs which Hans has, he's also a good source of parts or leads to sources.
Things like pickguards can get a little tricky because there were actually several sizes for different "F" body shapes and dreadnoughts.
I think the 2 guys I mentioned would be able to spec the right one, but I'm not sure Cordoba folks have enough knowledge about the quirks of really vintage stuff to be a reliable source of advice. To their credit, the way they politely described their inability to give background about your guitar was well-done.
I think most guys here go for functionality. They'll use an original replacement part if it's available and reasonably priced, but most Guilds won't be significantly devalued if they have non-original parts, so if that's what it takes, that's what it gets.
"All original" for me, for example, is far more of an aesthetic thing than a "Collector's value" thing.
 

GuildFS4612CE

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
3,350
Reaction score
490
That was my first thought, too, but I'm now leaning toward putting on a good, modern pickup if I can find one which:
1. Will fit where the old one was;
2. Is made of wood (preferably rosewood);
3. Looks as much as possible like the original;
4. Has no pots - just a direct connection to the existing jack;
5. Could be swapped out relatively easily by the next owner if they wanted to go back to the original pickup

Can anyone suggest a pickup which meets those criteria? The only one I've found so far is this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rosewood-Ma...681568?hash=item280eb8c3a0:g:dUgAAOSwk1JWg34C
but I'm very leery of buying on eBay - particularly when I don't know anything thing about the quality of the item or the seller.

I wouldn't touch a no name shipped from China item like that.

That said, there are many soundhole pickup mfrs such as DiMarzio, Seymour Duncan, Dean Markley, and a bunch more specialty and boutique makers who make wood finish pickups.

You're looking for a passive magnetic soundhole pickup.

There is something important you may be missing here: DIMENSIONS
Most soundhole pickups are made to be installed in the center to upper third of the soundhole...and will likely be too large to fit...You need to measure your soundhole carefully...where you want to place the pickup...some are more adjustable than others.

There are some made to fit more discretely and/or out of the way near the fretboard extension...off hand I don't recall the makers...someone with good search fu and better than library wireless internet connections...like Ralf...can likely locate them.

While several years out of date, this article still has a lot of information about soundhole mag PUPs:
http://www.fingerpick.com/pickups.htm
 
Last edited:

geoguy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
3,519
Reaction score
1,640
Location
metrowest MA
FYI, the second repair person linked in adorshki's post above was responsible for restoring Duane Eddy's vintage Guild after it was flood-damaged in Nashville several years ago. A highly skilled guy.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
FYI, the second repair person linked in adorshki's post above was responsible for restoring Duane Eddy's vintage Guild after it was flood-damaged in Nashville several years ago. A highly skilled guy.
Thanks, Geo, forgot about that.
Nothing against Tom but Chris is equally deserving of referrals for reasons like that.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
Having said all of that, I'm no luthier, so is there a flaw in my basic thinking?
Somehow I missed this post while I was composing earlier answers and now I better understand your willingness to try to find best compromise between function and aesthetics.
The only flaw that occurs to me about the discs is that they might tend to pop out if the adhesive on the tape isn't strong enough, and may be a source of pressure causing cracks in top as it expands/contracts with humidity changes?
I don't know, just thinking out loud, otherwise I applaud the basic philosophy .
 

geoguy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
3,519
Reaction score
1,640
Location
metrowest MA
You should talk to a real repair person or two, before deciding that the holes cannot be patched with wood. Just because we don't know how to do it satisfactorily doesn't mean that a skilled craftsperson can't make it happen. :cool:
 

SFIV1967

Venerated Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
18,442
Reaction score
8,956
Location
Bavaria / Germany
Guild Total
8
Just for the sake of giving equal time, another member was veteran of New Hartford, contact info in first post of this thread:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?187549-Repairs-and-Restorations/page2
And to add, Chris Seeger worked from 1999-2005 in the Gibson Custom shop in Nashville before he started in May 2005 in the Fender Custom shop in Nashville where he did warranty work of all Fender brands, Fender electrics, Guild, Tacoma, and Benedettos. In June 2011 he moved to New Hartford where he was responsible for Guild and Hamer warranty repairs until the factory there closed in 2014.
Ralf
 

PH_Graphics

Junior Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
64
Reaction score
13
Location
Grafton, Wisconsin, USA
The only flaw that occurs to me about the discs is that they might tend to pop out if the adhesive on the tape isn't strong enough, and may be a source of pressure causing cracks in top as it expands/contracts with humidity changes?

Exactly why I asked the question. I had not thought about the different thermal and/or humidity coefficients of expansion with different materials. Thanks for pointing that out. Am now considering a different non-destructive option re: the holes. Will fill you in after thinking about it some more.
 

PH_Graphics

Junior Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
64
Reaction score
13
Location
Grafton, Wisconsin, USA
National Get Out Your Guitar Day?

I'm going to interrupt this this discussion for a minute to take a short side trip.

Who knew that there is an official national "Get Out Your Guitar Day?"

And that it was yesterday?

I didn't until my wife told me I had to play something last night. This is just to show that I did my part to honor the day.
Get%20out%20your%20guitar%20and%20play%20day%20%20SS_zpspkjkvcyu.jpg
 

PH_Graphics

Junior Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
64
Reaction score
13
Location
Grafton, Wisconsin, USA
Thanks, Geo, forgot about that.
Nothing against Tom but Chris is equally deserving of referrals for reasons like that.

Thank you everyone for the names. I'll keep them in mind, but I want to follow up on one local lead first.

One of the artists who was listed on the Guild site as a "Supported Artist" until sometime last year is Willy Porter. It would not be accurate to say we're friends, but we know each other and generally talk once or twice a year. Last spring after a concert I photographed I spoke with him about some of the issues with my 412 and he told me that when I had a rough plan of action and was ready to do something he would be happy to give me the name of the person who works on all of his guitars and either make a phone call or, schedule permitting, go with me to the first meeting to personally introduce me.

He didn't give me a name at the time, but I've been researching local luthiers and one of them, Denny Rauen, has a list of clients on his website that includes Willy along with names such as Leo Kottkey, Keith Richards, Buddy Guy, Martin Barre and Jim Waller.

That tells me three things:
1. He's probably pretty good;
2. I might not be able to afford him, even after the savings of not having to pack and ship the guitar;
3. Even if I can afford him, he might not want a job this (relatively) trivial.

Still, I should make the initial contact whether or not he is the person Willy had in mind.

I'll probably see Willy tonight. He's playing a benefit concert about 4 miles from my house. A few months ago I had offered that charity to photograph the concert at no charge. That was before a total hip replacement became necessary, so I'm not 100% certain I can make the 4 mile car trip. I certainly can't stand - or even sit - long enough to do the photography, but I'll try to swing by and talk with him after the concert.

By the way, that concert I saw last year featured Willy and two long-time friends of his, Paul Cebar and Peter Mulvey. Even thought they have been playing and writing music together for almost 20 years, that was the first time they had ever done a joint concert. And best of all was the venue: Cafe Carpe in Fort Atkinson, WI. They played to very appreciative SRO audience of 70. 72 if you count the owners who had to split their time between the music room and the dining area. Here is just a taste, one photo of the 3 of them and one of Willy by himself.
Peter%20Paul%20and%20Willy%20at%20Cafe%20Carpe%20by%20Paul%20Hundley%20-%2029%20%20650px_zpsg3yean3u.jpg


Peter%20Paul%20and%20Willy%20at%20Cafe%20Carpe%20by%20Paul%20Hundley%20-%2053%20%20650px_zpsps8uqswr.jpg
 
Last edited:

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
Exactly why I asked the question. I had not thought about the different thermal and/or humidity coefficients of expansion with different materials. Thanks for pointing that out. Am now considering a different non-destructive option re: the holes. Will fill you in after thinking about it some more.
I will say I think the shooting star is a lot more harmonious with the lines of the guitar than the other inlay.
I was thrown off by the pic that didn't show it and thought the holes had already been dealt with.
Leaving it on might not be such a bad decision, if you could rationalize it as a reminder of the changes it's been/will go through.
There are guys who dig that kind of "mojo" a lot. Maybe leave it for the next guy to decide?
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
Thank you everyone for the names. I'll keep them in mind, but I want to follow up on one local lead first.
Cool stories! The kind of stuff we can't know until you get to posting it.
In fact I'd try to find a local guy first too, since I'd be awfully nervous about shipping, and those creds are pretty impeccable.
Please do keep us posted!
 

PH_Graphics

Junior Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
64
Reaction score
13
Location
Grafton, Wisconsin, USA
Leaving it on might not be such a bad decision, if you could rationalize it as a reminder of the changes it's been/will go through.
There are guys who dig that kind of "mojo" a lot. Maybe leave it for the next guy to decide?

Yes, that might well be the most practical solution and being practical is generally a great policy, but sometimes emotion wins out.

My problem is not with the shooting star concept; it's with the execution. I just think it was very poorly done in terms of the color-matching, the cutting out and the finishing of the wood.

I'll be the first to admit that I sometimes spend WAY too much time on the fine details -- details that only myself and maybe a couple dozen other people in the world will ever notice -- when prepping some of my photographs for print, but there is tremendous personal appeal to opening a book or looking at a framed print hanging on a client's wall and seeing that I got the details exactly right, not almost right.

I just think a 47 year old guitar of this overall quality deserves better than the work that was done in '88. Yes, the bridge and the pickguard are the most obvious visual problems that need to be solved, but it's equally important to me that whatever work I have done includes the undoing of the very poor craftsmanship of both patches.
 
Last edited:

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
My problem is not with the shooting star concept; it's with the execution. I just think it was very poorly done in terms of both the cutting out and the finishing of the wood.
Ah, couldn't tell that from pics, I get it completely.
I'll be the first to admit that I sometimes spend WAY too much time on the fine details
'at's what separates the true craftsman from the hack.
Carry on!
 

PH_Graphics

Junior Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
64
Reaction score
13
Location
Grafton, Wisconsin, USA
Hello PH_Graphics,

...... Another detail is the replaced bridge, which is a bit oversized. Not unusual for a guitar from this period.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

This reference caused me to start thinking about the bridge lately, a topic I've never spent any time on until now.

I have not said this, yet, but the primary reason I took the guitar to violin-man in the first place was that the bridge was beginning to lift. Removing the original pickup and pots was a kind of "While you're at it ..." toss-in.

I no longer have the receipt detailing all of the work done back then and 27 year old memories tend not to be 100% accurate, but if you had asked me a year ago I would have said that I thought he replaced the bridge, not just glued it back down. That was in my mind as the explanation when you first pointed out the oversize bridge.

But that also got me to wondering why I had not noticed at the time that the "new" bride I thought he installed was larger than the old one. I would have thought I'd have noticed that.

So I've been studying some pre-pickup removal photos I've been able to dig up, and it now looks to me that the oversize bridge was already in place when I purchased the guitar in 1979. If true, I am now somewhat more worried about what we'll find when we lift the current bridge and pickguard, as that will mean that the original bridge and pickguard were both replaced before the guitar was 11 years old. Sure, there could be a simple and innocent explanation for that, but .....

I want to run some Photoshop work I did this morning past the readers to see if you agree with my bridge size assessment. First is the post-pickup removal photo I originally posted (the one Hans commented on regarding the bridge size) - turned on its side, cropped and with lines added.

Bridge%20size%20after%20pickup%20removal_zpsw1jjx0mm.jpg


Next are two photos I dug up from before the work was done in '88. I know direct comparisons between different photos are difficult because of parallax differences, but I think I corrected for the vast majority of the parallax differences by making all lines both tangent to the very edges of the bridge and parallel to the respective nearest edges of the fingerboard. Here are those two, one with both edges of the bridge visible and one with more of the bridge itself, but only one edge.

Bridge%20size%20before%20pickup%20removal_zpsuodom3uv.jpg


Bridge%20size%20before%20pickup%20removal%202_zpsus0pd3ai.jpg


Looking at these photos I can't come to any other conclusion than that the current bridge is the bridge that was in place when I bought the guitar.

Does anyone disagree and think the pre-1988 bridge looks smaller? Like it might be the original bridge from the factory, not the slightly oversized replacement?
 
Last edited:

PH_Graphics

Junior Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
64
Reaction score
13
Location
Grafton, Wisconsin, USA
One more thing ...

Last post of the day and then I have to get some work done.

I now have a copy of Hans' book on order and that should give me more information regarding a "typical" F-412 from that period, but I'm still trying to track down photos to see as many guitars as possible. The vast majority seem to have, along with the ebony fingerboard, a tortoise guard and a rosewood bridge.

It looks to me though, that a 412 currently for sale on Reverb.com and a Guild ad from 1978, currently for sale on eBay, show the ebony fingerboard coupled with a black guard and an ebony bridge.

Here's the guitar:
F-412%20on%20reverb_zpsbphvwxz6.jpg


The Guild ad can be seen at: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1978-Guild-F-412-12-String-F412-Acoustic-Guitar-Print-Ad-/381529269271?hash=item58d4eaa417:g:IvcAAOxyRhBS8h7t

I have to say that I've long believed that visual elegance and visual simplicity are closely related, so the thought of an ebony, ebony and black on aged sitka guitar is, as of right now, much more appealing to me than an ebony, tortoise and rosewood on aged sitka visual texture scheme.

I think it would allow the beautiful fingerboard inlays and the elegant Guild text and logo inlay on the black headstock face to really stand out. And in a perfect world I might even find an ebony pickup (preferably but not necessarily operational) that will fit nestled against the bottom of the fingerboard. It sounds like a number of you feel the pickup will be the hardest part of my parts search, so why not make it just a little tougher?

When soliciting help with design choices I generally value dissenting opinions over concurring ones, so can anyone give me a reason that the black/black/black/black/sitka color choice might be a poor one?
 
Last edited:

hansmoust

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
9,201
Reaction score
3,504
Location
Netherlands
hansmoust said:
Another detail is the replaced bridge, which is a bit oversized. Not unusual for a guitar from this period.

Hello PH,

When I mentioned the replaced bridge, I wasn't referring to the length, but to the width of the bridge.


PH_Graphics said:
Bridge%20size%20after%20pickup%20removal_zpsw1jjx0mm.jpg


Bridge%20size%20before%20pickup%20removal%202_zpsus0pd3ai.jpg


Looking at these photos I can't come to any other conclusion than that the current bridge is the bridge that was in place when I bought the guitar.

I believe that the two photos show a different bridge; look at the angle of the bridge saddle!

But either way, whether the pictures show a different bridge or the same one, it is (or they are) definitely not the original bridge(s).
So what I'm saying is that the bridge was already replaced when you bought the guitar.

As far as replacing the current bridge for an ebony one, I can already tell you that the 'old '60s style' bridge has a much larger 'footprint' than the '70s (and later) style ebony bridge, which is much thicker in design, but with a smaller 'footprint'. Making an ebony bridge with the '60s style 'footprint' would be an instant 'tone killer' because of its added mass.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 

GuildFS4612CE

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
3,350
Reaction score
490
Some rosewood is really dark...some photos are not accurate color wise...

It's your guitar...if you like black, you can always have an unfinished replacement bridge stained ebony...likely a fretboard as well...wouldn't be the first time stain was applied...even to actual ebony...some ebony is figured and/or striped...people's expectations are that it should be black...hence the application of stain...and you can get any pickguard you want.

Do what you like with it...just play it.
 
Top