Has anyone ever seen this pick guard before?

PH_Graphics

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After 3 days of delays trying to find a suitable image host, I think we have this figured out. Thanks, fronobulax and others, for your suggestions.

At the urging of fronobulax I'm going to insert this photo into a brand new thread, otherwise it's going to be buried 10 layers down in an otherwise wholly uninteresting exchange between myself and the moderators regarding the uploading of images. So here is the text of my original post, along with a photo:

I'm a new member and this is my first post, even though I've owned my F-412 Blonde since 1979. According to Guild's serial number chart it was made in the F-412's first year of production, 1968. It was the 9th of 10 made that year. (Only 4 were made the following year, so I guess the introduction did not go all that well. That tells me that in the late 60's Guild was much better at making guitars than at selling them.)

Anyway, I bought it from someone in the Chicago area who told me at the time that the rosewood pick guard was a special order, but factory original. He did not go into the significance, if any, of the crescent moon. I've been in touch recently with Cordoba Music group to see if they can confirm or deny that the pick guard was factory installed. Their most recent response is that because of the numerous ownership changes since the late 60's many details from that period are simply not available, but that no one there recognizes the guard and nothing like it exists in any remaining photos from the period, so it's unlikely to have come with that guard from Hoboken.

I personally don't care. I bought the guitar for its sound, not for its pick guard, but I'm planning to have some work done on it and need to make a decision about either working around that guard or replacing it. I'd prefer the latter, but at the same time I don't want to destroy what might have been a very rare factory offering.

So I'm throwing this out to the group. Has anyone out there ever seen or heard about a pick guard like this one? (More on that patch at the top of the guard in a future post.......)

Guild%20F-412%20-%20full%20guitar_zpskaooxrt1.jpg
 

walrus

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I guess only Hans can say for sure, but IMHO that would be VERY surprising if it is factory original. Except for the pickguard, that is a real beauty, enjoy it!

walrus
 

AcornHouse

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Yikes! I'm sure Hans will know for sure, but I have serious doubts that that was put on by Guild.
 

AcornHouse

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I guess only Hans can say for sure, but IMHO that would be VERY surprising if it is factory original. Except for the pickguard, that is a real beauty, enjoy it!

walrus
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sailingshoes72

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Two observations:

First, most Guild instruments that are a "custom order" have some indication on the label (i.e. F-412 Blonde Sp., or Special).

Second, the outline of the original pickguard should be visible under an ultra-violet light, if the present pickguard is after-market.

Also, at first glance, I see the reverse image in the rosewood... a mandolin type scroll, instead of a crescent moon.

Best, Bill
 

hansmoust

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I'm a new member and this is my first post, even though I've owned my F-412 Blonde since 1979. According to Guild's serial number chart it was made in the F-412's first year of production, 1968. It was the 9th of 10 made that year. (Only 4 were made the following year, so I guess the introduction did not go all that well. That tells me that in the late 60's Guild was much better at making guitars than at selling them.)

I bought the guitar for its sound, not for its pick guard, but I'm planning to have some work done on it and need to make a decision about either working around that guard or replacing it. I'd prefer the latter, but at the same time I don't want to destroy what might have been a very rare factory offering.

So I'm throwing this out to the group. Has anyone out there ever seen or heard about a pick guard like this one? (More on that patch at the top of the guard in a future post.......)

Guild%20F-412%20-%20full%20guitar_zpskaooxrt1.jpg

Hello PH_Graphics,

Welcome! No, I've never seen anything like that on a Guild guitar from that particular period. I don't think that the inlaid part in the top was done by Guild. I can't prove it, but it simply doesn't look like anything that Guild would have done. I will show it to some people who were there at the time and who would recognize it if it was done by Guild.

I understand that there is an additional story that could explain why the fingerboard was cut off, which may have made it necessary to add an extra piece of wood in that area.

Another detail is the replaced bridge, which is a bit oversized. Not unusual for a guitar from this period.

Would love to see a detail photo of the label to see what the exact model designation is; I also would like to check the label type!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 

adorshki

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Yikes! I'm sure Hans will know for sure, but I have serious doubts that that was put on by Guild.
Triple that.
It just isn't "Guild-y", like I said about that re-topped F50 that popped up here a while ago with the checkerboard binding.
Yeah I know I flip-flopped on that but I turned out to be right on my first reaction, and as it turned out it was a re-top as many of us suspected, although done by a highly-respected luthier, explaining why I thought later it might have been a Guild job even though completely outside their normal stylistic cues, just before we got the final scoop.

For one thing I don't think Guild would have obscured their rosette that way, no matter how much somebody offered, it's one of the "brand image" things, that it's got their name on the headstock even if it was a special order. It's gotta represent their aesthetic standards, and with all due respect, it's probably nice enough work on the guard itself but not quite on target.
IF Guild had consented to something like that, I think they would have cut the guard wider on the bass bout side or thinner on the treble, it's off balance in its present proportions.
The flow of the outline from the end of the fretboard is also not harmonious enough, in fact I think they would have left space between the fretboard and the soundhole, and mirrored the curve of the outline on the treble bout side on the bass bout side, see what I mean?
"Art critic Al"
I like Sailingshoes' idea of checking with a UV light for outline of original guard, except I'm wondering if that was actually done to conceal some damage repair, and if top was re-finished it might not be visible, but it's worth a shot.
Finally,you should know Guild's record-keeping wasn't 100% in any case, and even if it was factory work, it's very possible there's no record of it, but the "SP" or "SPEC" or even "Custom" appendix on the model number on the label might be the only clue like Sailing says.
Hans Moust specifically mentions in his book that Guild at the time operated more like a custom shop than a regular production factory, so there were always "specials" on the line, and some of 'em did slip through the record-keeping. He rescued all the records he could when Westerly closed in 2001 so if anybody can confirm, it will be him.
I'd think something that radical would be sure to be noted on the label, as confirmation it really did come from Guild that way. Even the double pickguard option frequently got "DP" on the label.
For an example of Guild at its wildest, and to give you an idea about what I mean by "the look", see this example:
Rick-Nielsen-1963-Guild-Merle-Travis-614.jpg


It's their Merle Travis model, that one's owned by Rick Nielsen of Cheap Trick, sorry couldn't find anything bigger.
Anyway, your concern about possibly mucking with a very rare factory build is wonderful but I'll bet you don't have to worry about that and can proceed with repairs worry free.
EDIT:
Aha, I see Hans got in while I was laboriously crafting this post...:biggrin-new:
 
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PH_Graphics

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Hey everybody, thanks for the input. No big surprises, but I'd rather hear that up front than, as I said, trash a rare factory oddity.

A couple of specific answers:

Hans, here is the label you wanted to see.
Guild%20F-412%20warranty%20label_zpsj1ja9fmc.jpg



adorski, you are spot on about the clumsy meeting of the guard and the fretboard, and that is the focus of the second discussion I'd like to start. Here is what that area looked like when I bought the guitar:

Guild%20F-412%20before%20pickup%20removal%20-%20detail_zpspddou7ns.jpg


As you could see from the label above, the guitar originally had a pickup. I never cared for the sound output from that pickup and I hated what the tone and volume control knobs did for the appearance. So in 1988 I made what I now look back on as one of the great mistakes of my life. I had the pickup and pots removed.

And as with so many of the mistakes we make in life, this one involved love. I was then dating a woman whose cousin was considered to be the top guy in the area for premium violin work. She very much wanted me to have him do the removal and patch and said that the 2 of them had discussed the "perfect" cover for the holes from the pots, so I said OK. From the moment I picked up the guitar I was horrified by the result (the "shooting star" patch was, she said, because of my long-time fascination with astronomy), but I did not feel free at the time to say anything. My association with violin-man ended immediately; my association with the girlfriend soon after that. I went from playing pretty much daily to playing a few times a month because I just could not stand to open the case and look down at at the monster I'd created. Here is that patch, in ugly detail:

Guild%20F-412%20Pick%20guard%20closeup_zpsleutarap.jpg


For the rest of the decade I simply refused to let the guitar appear anywhere in public and by 2000 had largely quit playing altogether aside from the few times a year I'd play for 30 minutes or so, apply some polish and put it away again.

Late last year the arthritis in my hips, neck, shoulders and hands began to get worse (I played Division 1 football in college) and it dawned on me that my days of even being able to play were probably numbered and that having an instrument like this and not playing it was a far worse mistake than what I had done in 1988. So I want to fix my mistakes (both of them) and would love advice from the Guild community.

First, I never throw away anything, so I know I have the pickup and pots around here somewhere, but six months of searching have not turned them up. Thinking ahead to whoever will be the next owner, how important is it to have the original pickup (or a replacement) be part of the repair? If I can't find mine, are these pickups even available any more? For that matter, does anyone even know the make and model of the pickup so I can start a search?

I also have questions about pick guards, but I'll start with the pickup for now.
 
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adorshki

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I went from playing pretty much daily to playing a few times a month because I just could not stand to open the case and look down at at the monster I'd created. Here is that patch, in ugly detail:

Guild%20F-412%20Pick%20guard%20closeup_zpsleutarap.jpg

For the rest of the decade I simply refused to let the guitar appear anywhere in public and by 2000 had largely quit playing altogether aside from the few times a year I'd play for 30 minutes or so, apply some polish and put it away again.

Late last year the arthritis in my hips, neck, shoulders and hands began to get worse (I played Division 1 football in college) and it dawned on me that my days of even being able to play were probably numbered and that having an instrument like this and not playing it was a far worse mistake than what I had done in 1988.
Man do I ever sympathize with both of those issues.
So I want to fix my mistakes (both of them) and would love advice from the Guild community.

First, I never throw away anything, so I know I have the pickup and pots around here somewhere, but six months of searching have not turned them up. Thinking ahead to whoever will be the next owner, how important is it to have the original pickup (or a replacement) be part of the repair?
I think cosmetically you will be ahead of the game if you reinstall the original pickup even if you don't re-install the control knobs. Keep 'em with the guitar in case subsequent owner wants to go completely original, but I agree I think it looks better without knobs. They are an example of what the state of the art was at the time though, and some people really go for that, myself included. If they were already on a guitar I was considering, I wouldn't plan on taking 'em out.
You could install a modern undersaddle transducer to get decent output, kind of like what they do with "restomod" cars these days: keep the look with modern technology and reliabilty underneath.


If I can't find mine, are these pickups even available any more? For that matter, does anyone even know the make and model of the pickup so I can start a search?
Pretty sure Hans knows, think he ID'd that setup on a '67 D40 a while back. I'd concentrate on finding yours, though.
I also have questions about pick guards, but I'll start with the pickup for now.
Think the D40 had a standard guard, maybe notched to accommodate the pickup, hard to recall now.
Vintage style 'guard shouldn't be too hard to find, be aware there were different shapes for different bodies and sizes.
Then comes the question about whether restoring it will increase value or if you'll recover cost?
Sadly Guilds don't command the cache of say vintage Martins and Gibsons.
MY suspicion would be that you may bring the guitar up to a decent market value but may take some loss doing it.
I definitely think it'd be a tough sell at a "project guitar" price in its current condition.
So restoring it may decrease the size of the loss when you finally get around to selling.
I sense a real love for it on you part and I do think it's worth restoring, but only you can decide how much you can afford for a labor of love. Again, using the car analogy, if you're gonna keep it's kind of like getting the body all fixed up after twenty years, you're still getting use out of it and you love it, and it's still cheaper than a new car.
I think most of us could justify it for a "keeper" but would advise, like me, against anticipating a profit from restoring, if intending to sell, soon.
We have a member here named Fixit, actually worked at Guild in the '80's, runs Jacobs Custom Guitars in Florida, and became one of their authorized repair techs shortly after the Cordoba takeover.
Nothing but satisfaction from everybody here who's used him so far and he'd be my first call if you can live with the idea of shipping a guitar:
http://www.jacobscustomguitars.com/
And coincidentally a concurrent thread from a member who works there too:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?188340-What-the-heck/page2
Please do keep us posted, we LOVE rescue stories!
 
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GuildFS4612CE

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Antique electronics are just that...much better stuff available now...I'd go for playability...someone like Tom (fixit) could restore/improve the cosmetics...while we all love our Guilds...the marketplace doesn't...they are not valued highly as collector items...they are for playing...fix it up and enjoy it. Good Luck.
 

PH_Graphics

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I sense a real love for it on you part and I do think it's worth restoring, but only you can decide how much you can afford for a labor of love.

This is my first attempt to include a quote in my reply, so I'm not certain it will work, but yes, I am very fond of this guitar. Aside from the $15 starter I bought from a local pawn shop my freshman year of high school this is the only acoustic guitar I've ever owned. And no, I don't look at the upcoming work as a financial investment (though it's entirely possible that money spent today on this repair might well outperform the stock market over the next few years.)

That said, I do make my living as an artist, so the "money-is-no-object" approach is not an option.
 

PH_Graphics

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I think most of us could justify it for a "keeper" but would advise, like me, against anticipating a profit from restoring, if intending to sell, soon.

It's only when attempting bar chords that my fingers just won't play any more that I consider selling, and that's only with the thought that maybe a 6 string will be easier to play. As strange as this sounds, though, I don't think I've ever played an acoustic 6 for more than about 5 minutes at a time in my life, so I'm not certain one WOULD solve the playability issue. If it did, I MIGHT consider selling this for an F-50 Blonde. As you can tell, I'm partial to jumbo blondes. Don't tell my wife.

In reality, though, the allure of being the one who gets to host this guitar's 50th birthday party in 3 years makes it very unlikely that it will be in different hands by then.
 

adorshki

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It's only when attempting bar chords that my fingers just won't play any more that I consider selling, and that's only with the thought that maybe a 6 string will be easier to play.
I don't mean to monopolize the replies, but there's at least a couple of remedies for that depending on where the difficulty actually is (ie, it's a finger strength as opposed to pain issue).
Forgive me if this is old hat but since you're saying you don't play much I'll assume this stuff could be new to you:
You can get "Silk&Steel" string sets,and/or tune down a 1/2 step or 2 if not already.
While I like Guild's set-up height, a lot of people like it lower.
You may want to check the neck alignment to see if it's still decent:
When the neck starts to cave into the top from years of tension it results in the strings getting pretty high off the fretboard.
A simple set-up by a luthier can identify this and possibly remedy it for the time being, wouldn't cost much added to the repairs you're considering or just by itself.
On the extreme of possibilities are guys who've taken to stringing their 12's with only 6 strings, usually because they just like the wide neck for their style/technique.
Hopefully other folks'll pitch in and flesh out what I'm mentioning if you like, just ask.
Weekends are usually busier around here, you're just in time!
 

GardMan

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I guess if it were mine, I'd have to consider the options relative to their effects on the guitars playability and appearance, and my pocket book. I am not sure I would put the original electronics back on... they are never going to be suitably functional. I'd probably argue try to restore it as an unelectrified F-412, rather than putting the originals back on as "dummies"...

Option 1: Do nothing. Just play it the way it is. Clearly the cheapest. But, if appearance inhibits your enjoyment, perhaps not the best option...

Option 2: At the other extreme is a complete re-top and fingerboard extension... including new rosette, of course, and new properly shaped pick guard. Probably mucho $$$. But, unless there are other issues with soundboard, I would hate to throw out a 50 year old top just for cosmetic reasons.

Option 3: Restore using as much of the original guitar as possible, in an unelectrified form. This may end up costing more than a re-top... I don't know. But we have had some folks here do amazing things restoring old Guilds that had been covered in epoxy top to bottom. See this thread about Wileypickets JV-72...

First pull the pick guards and other applique...and see how bad the finish and rosette are. Decide if they can be made cosmetically acceptable, or whether a complete refinish will be needed. Patch any holes from knobs and/or the removal of the pick guard with suitable spruce.

Now... I am going past my knowledge, but I would pull the last fret in the finger board extension, and cut the extension through the fret slot. Splice on a short section of ebony fingerboard to bring the extension to its proper length. Then, a good binding splice would help hide/disguise the finger board splice from the side, and when the fret is replaced, it would hide the splice from the top of the fret board. Add either a single Guild pick guard, or the double pick guard "Marlo Thomas" look, depending on the amount of damage that needs to be concealed (and black hides better than tortoise). If a full refinish is decided upon, you would pull the bridge before doing that... and we have recently seen how an amber finish can hide lots of cosmetic boo boos... or even a burst.

This whole process MIGHT cost more than a full re-top. But then, it does preserve the soundboard and overall integrity of the guitar. I would start gathering opinions from some good repair folk...

Best of luck...
 

PH_Graphics

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I don't mean to monopolize the replies, but there's at least a couple of remedies for that depending on where the difficulty actually is (ie, it's a finger strength as opposed to pain issue).

Strength is more of an issue than pain, but there is also a bio-mechanical issue I'm facing. My left index finger is starting to curve to the point that the tip of my finger is on, if not across, the fret under the bass strings when the lower part of that finger is where it always used to be for the treble strings. I can fix that by pulling my left elbow aggressively to the right and in front of my stomach, but that's very hard on my left shoulder. That shoulder was separated maybe 20 or 30 times during my football days and basically is not a shoulder any more. Short of surgery to straighten the finger I'm not certain that problem has a solution, so it's possible that certain chords, especially when I start to get to the 5th fret and beyond, might simply be a part of my past.

I'm no expert on strings, but it has occurred to me that should be the first place I look for playability help. Years ago I tried a set of D'Addario Phosphor Bronze lights and liked them, so that has been my string of choice since. A month or so ago I was in a local music store and they recommended Dean Markley Bronze lights as being slightly lighter (.009 - .046 gauge vs. .009 - .047) while producing pretty much the same sound. I can't say I've noticed a difference in the weight, and I think I like the sound of the D'Addarios better. Looking online this morning I see that D'Addario has an extra light Phosphor Bronze at .009 - .045. I've never head of the Silk & Steel before.

Can you (or anyone) give me the Reader's Digest version of the tonal differences between PB and S&S? Or does anyone have another opinion on a great (very light) string for a vintage jumbo maple?
 

SFIV1967

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Interesting guitar and story, we love it!
Maybe the other thread about it can be merged by a moderator with this one.

So the label only shows it is a F-412 "blonde electric". Nothing special mentioned otherwise on the label.

Hans had previously mentioned: "The 'electric' option was first offered on the D-40 and F-212 in the Nov. 1966 price list...The option became soon available on other models as well."

He also had previously shown a catalog page from 1969:

F212E_D40E.jpg


Hans also had previously said. "That particular pickup was obtained from Hagstrom, who supplied Guild with several other pickups and hardware during the '60s and early '70s."
And: "Like most magnetic pickups for acoustic flat top guitars from that period, it didn't sound all that good."

Ralf
 

PH_Graphics

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I guess if it were mine, I'd have to consider the options relative to their effects on the guitars playability and appearance, and my pocket book. I am not sure I would put the original electronics back on... they are never going to be suitably functional. I'd probably argue try to restore it as an unelectrified F-412, rather than putting the originals back on as "dummies"...

That was my first thought, too, but I'm now leaning toward putting on a good, modern pickup if I can find one which:
1. Will fit where the old one was;
2. Is made of wood (preferably rosewood);
3. Looks as much as possible like the original;
4. Has no pots - just a direct connection to the existing jack;
5. Could be swapped out relatively easily by the next owner if they wanted to go back to the original pickup

Can anyone suggest a pickup which meets those criteria? The only one I've found so far is this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rosewood-Ma...681568?hash=item280eb8c3a0:g:dUgAAOSwk1JWg34C
but I'm very leery of buying on eBay - particularly when I don't know anything thing about the quality of the item or the seller.

Other than that you are right that I can't make detailed plans until the current pick guard is lifted. It does seem, though, that one way or another I'll need at least a proper bridge and pick guard. I see both (referred to as "traditional") on the current Guild parts website, but what have other LTGers done in this situation in the past, buy new Guild parts or hunt down authentic vintage parts?

If the latter, can members suggest a few places I should begin my search for the vintage parts? A Google search turns up lots of junk, but there must be parts sites which are well-known to those who deal with this regularly.
 
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adorshki

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Strength is more of an issue than pain, but there is also a bio-mechanical issue I'm facing. My left index finger is starting to curve to the point that the tip of my finger is on, if not across, the fret under the bass strings when the lower part of that finger is where it always used to be for the treble strings. I can fix that by pulling my left elbow aggressively to the right and in front of my stomach, but that's very hard on my left shoulder. That shoulder was separated maybe 20 or 30 times during my football days and basically is not a shoulder any more. Short of surgery to straighten the finger I'm not certain that problem has a solution, so it's possible that certain chords, especially when I start to get to the 5th fret and beyond, might simply be a part of my past.
Yes, tha's a very tough one, we've had a couple of other members mention similar issues and shoulder problems.
I've been lucky so far although I do have gout, but I've always played in classical position because I was taught early on it's the most ergonomic for playing. Maybe that might help a bit if you don't already do that?

I can't say I've noticed a difference in the weight, and I think I like the sound of the D'Addarios better. Looking online this morning I see that D'Addario has an extra light Phosphor Bronze at .009 - .045. I've never head of the Silk & Steel before.
D'Addario was Guild's OEM supplier from at least the mid eighties up to the close of Westerly ('01)and now I suspect the relationship might go all the way back to when D'Addario invented the phosphor bronze alloy in the mid '70's, as Guild started showing the option in their price list about that time as well. After a hiatus in which Guild didn't offer a Guild branded string, they went back to D'Addario in New Hartford, about '10-'14.
I started using the D'A's when Guild stopped offering strings and every time I try something else I wind up going back.
Can you (or anyone) give me the Reader's Digest version of the tonal differences between PB and S&S? Or does anyone have another opinion on a great (very light) string for a vintage jumbo maple?
Probably the biggest difference will be less volume and a warmer less metallic tone on the silk/steels. Less "zing".
The silk'n'steels have a lot less tension.
I have a buddy who uses 'em to keep tension down on the top after getting bridge lift and reset on his Guild 12-er, an '87 JF30-12. He even tunes down a 1/2 or whole step on top of that.
For sure the first time I heard it that way I was surprised the guitar was so "quiet", until I found out why.
Don't think you're going to find anything easier to play than that set-up, but I do like the idea of that extra light set of PB D'Addario's offering.
.010-.047 was Guild's factory spec for 12-ers during the '90's at least, but other folks have mentioned heavier gauges being offered before that.
If it was me I'd get a set of each to compare.
 
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