1940'S Orpheum Maple Archtop

949Norm

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On the search for Franz pickups, I ran across and bought an Orpheum Archtop
Physically, it looks very similar to my 1955 Gretsch Corvette Archtop
The Guitar is Maple top, back and sides with a Mahogany Neck
Two very nice Black Franz pickups reading in the low 4's
Very well made, looks to have had a binding job in the past
Original open back Waverly Machines
Doesn't have a serial number and the numbers on the pots
don't make a lot of sense, probably PRE numbering numbers

I can't seem to find any (or hardly any) information
Round Metal Badge on headstock says ORPHEUM NY

If anyone has any info I'd love to see it
On another site, someone posted a URL to YouTube with Bo Diddley playing a very similar Guitar on
the Ed Sullivan show

I'd LOVE to post a picture here for all to see but somehow I can't
 
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dapmdave

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Here's some info about posting pictures: http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?185122-FAQ-Posting-pictures-to-LTG

Regarding the Orpheum, they were a NYC-made archtop from the 1930's and 1940's. We had one (No. 3) in our shop for a while, with the name apparently painted on the headstock with spray paint over a stencil. But it was a nice guitar, overall. Well built and made of nice materials.

There's not a lot of specific info out there, but the best we could find was in the Harmony Guitars database site, here: http://harmony.demont.net/search.php (type Orpheum into the search box)
 
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949Norm

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Thanks very much Dave, I'll check that out
If you look for Bo Diddley on Ed Sullivan on Youtube, He is playing a single Cutaway sunburst Orpheum with two Franz pickups, and this was 5 months before Elvis would appear on Television
Mine is Natural with no cutaway, but sounds very similar
The one on the Harmony Database doesn't look much like what I have, I'll get a photobucket acct set up and post it
 
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dapmdave

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Thanks very much Dave, I'll check that out
If you look for Bo Diddley on Ed Sullivan on Youtube, He is playing a single Cutaway sunburst Orpheum with two Franz pickups, and this was 5 months before Elvis would appear on Television
Mine is Natural with no cutaway, but sounds very similar
The one on the Harmony Database doesn't look much like what I have, I'll get a photobucket acct set up and post it

Yeah, they made different models, of course.

Here's the one we had (pickup was added in our shop):

front.JPG
 

SFIV1967

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Regarding the Orpheum brandname:

"ORPHEUM: Instruments previously manufactured in Chicago, IL during the 1930s and 1940s, in Japan during the 1960s, and in Asia, between 2001 and 2006. Instruments Distributed by William L. Lange Company of New York, NY, and by C. Bruno & Son until 1942. Distributed by Maurice Lipsky Music Company, Inc., of New York, NY between 1944 and the early 1970s, by Tacoma Guitars between 2001 and 2004 and by Fender Musical Instruments Corporation between 2005 and 2006. Also see Lange.
The Orpheum trademark goes back to 1901. Orpheum guitars were first introduced by distributor William L. Lange Company of New York in the mid-1930s. The Orpheum brand instruments were also distributed by C. Bruno & Son during this early period. It is estimated that some of the Orpheum models were built in Chicago, IL by the Kay company.
Lange's company went out of business in the early 1940s, but New York distributor Maurice Lipsky resumed distribution of Orpheum guitars circa 1944. The Maurice Lipsky Music Company continued distributing Orpheum guitars, through to the 1960s (see also Domino).
Until more research is done in the Orpheum area, prices will continue to fluctuate. Be very cautious in the distinction between the American models and the later overseas models produced in Japan. "What the market will bear" remains the watchword for Orpheums.
In 2001, Tacoma reintroduced the Orpheum brand name on a line of acoustic instruments. In 2005, when Fender bought Tacoma and related trademarks, Orpheum became only a bluegrass trademark as mandolins, resonators, and banjos were offered. By 2006, Orpheum no longer appeared with Fender the status of the trademark is unknown. Sources: Tom Wheeler, American Guitars, Orpheum Manufacturing Company catalog courtesy John Kinnemeyer, JK Lutherie.
"

The Orpheum trademark is owned by Cordoba Music Group (who also owns Guild) today. https://inventively.com/search/trademarks/owner/CORDOBA MUSIC GROUP, INC.#

Now Hans had posted another interesting fact in early 2013: http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?175382-The-Orpheum-Brand

Ralf
 
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949Norm

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I can't seem to date this Guitar ,The Pots have two sets of numbers that I haven't encountered before
On the back of the pots it reads 999 in large print and over that it reads 140321 in small print, was this before WW2 when they didn't date them?
Does anyone know what those numbers denote?
 

Bill Ashton

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"140" is the EIA number identifying the manufacturer of the pot; "321" means the pot was manufactured on the 21st week of 1943, '53 or possibly '63. So this clue would lead you to believe the whole guitar was manufactured between 1943 and 1963. Unlikely it was made during the war, though not impossible, my money would be on 1950's vintage as by the 60's the pickups, knobs and switches would probably be more refined in appearance. And by the 60's plastics were in use more as pickguard material than the celluloid.

All conjecture of course. The switch may have a similar EIA number.

Default, where are you...some help here?:eek:nthego:
 

hansmoust

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I can't seem to date this Guitar ,The Pots have two sets of numbers that I haven't encountered before
On the back of the pots it reads 999 in large print and over that it reads 140321 in small print, was this before WW2 when they didn't date them?
Does anyone know what those numbers denote?

That sounds like a Clarostat pot from 1953, so the guitar must have been made after that. It is from the same manufacturer who made Premier guitars around that time and that were very similar.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 

949Norm

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I'd say the 53 date is right on
Here's a shot of the Orpheum and my 1955 Gretsch Corvette, both without Pick guards, they are quite similar
The Orpheum seems to be heavier, but its had binding repair and refinishing
Thanks Very Much !!
Gretsch%20Orpheum.jpg
 

SFIV1967

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That Orpheum looks wonderful!
I would have guessed it was made by Kay in Chicago for Maurice Lipsky Music Company in N.Y. but there are also various (similar unreliable) reports on the internet about a "United-Code" company in New York who made such kind of guitars or bodies only for multiple companies/brand names.

A slightly more modern Orpheum is this one which the seller called "Kay made" (but where that info is from is unknown) (tuners are not original). I'd guess yours is slightly older with the black pickups, similar to the story at Guild.

fr2ysdtdonon3fm08hof.jpg


Ralf
 
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949Norm

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I followed the Code/United idea, couldn't find much there
I've heard both theory's, Neither has much info on any Orpheum's with this particular "Badge"
At first Glance it looks sort of 60's, but when you look closely at it, and the build quality of the Instrument, you can tell it was earlier than that. When I was younger, I began playing on Kay's and Silver tone's and this is not that sort of build at all

Franz Replacement Covers are being made by a Hobbyist on Ebay, I know, because I bought a set Myself that look exactly like the ones on this Guitar with the Gold Tuners
The Franz bridge and neck pickups on mine are completely different sizes and I believe are original to the guitar. the ones above look possibly newer and Uniform

I'm starting to think there was a time period that the Guitars were handmade in New York by someone who had access to or was connected with some of the old Italian Guild/ Gretsch Handcrafters, and that's the short time frame this badge is from, its not seen much and the build quality and materials are fairly high end, the back of the Pegboard on mine is also painted black in the style of same period Gretsch Syncromatics as well, and the Tuners are open back Waverlys which look original to the guitar.

I ran this past the Folks on the Gretsch pages as well, there's just not a whole lot of info out these

Zachary Fjestad writes in his most recent Edition of "15th Edition of Electric Guitars"
"Orpheum Guitars were distributed by William L. Lange Co of New York, NY in the mid 30's. The Orpheum brand instruments were also distributed by C. Bruno & Sons during this early period."
Looks like Lange's Company went out of business in the early 40's and around 1944 was distributed by Maurice Lipsky, where I think the Kay connection is through the 70's
No one ever says what happened to the C. Bruno and Son connection
Interesting
 

Walter Broes

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Ralf, that guitar in your last post is another Code/united made one. Same body as the Premier branded ones, and D'Angelico did a few of these with a D'Angelico neck and Franz pickups.

Who's selling the guitar in your post btw? I like it!
 

949Norm

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Here again we have the Orpheum alongside Gretsch #16100, this Model 6183 Gretsch has a build date of 1954, Model 6183, made in Brooklyn, sold in 1955 as a "Corvette"
I can't help but think there was some connection between these Builders with the pot dates on the Orpheum of 1953 and all the obvious similarities
The Orpheum predates the Gretsch by at least one year, 1955 was the year Gretsch put a truss rod in the Corvette, the Orpheum has a truss rod and cover
Is there definitive information on Code/United? The info on C. Bruno comes from the Patent Office.
Was C. Bruno building Guitars in New York? Who actually built this Guitar in 1953 in New York? Was Chicago copying Gretsch to a tee in Chicago, and THEN using Franz pickups from New York??
The Orpheum also has had a complete rebinding due to gases destroying the original binding, so it stands out more.


Interesting
Compare.jpg
 
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Walter Broes

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Norm, I don't think there's any connection between Gretsch and your Orpheum guitar. The basic silhouette is similar, because they're both loosely based on a non cutaway Gibson L-5, at least cosmetically. And those Waverly tuners were the cheap generic tuners of the day, used by a lot of different guitar companies.
 

949Norm

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Got something here Code (pronounced ko-day) AND United produced Guitars "United was owned by Frank Forcillo, ex-D'Angelico worker and long time friend D'Angelico put his name on a series of Plywood Body Guitars (Model G-7) that were built at either United or Code. The plywood instruments featured solid necks fashioned by D'Angelico, but the construction was handled out in the United Plant. D'Angeico used to stock these Guitars in his showroom/workshop in NYC. D'Angelicos by United were not numbered or recorded . The body design is perhaps more reminiscent of a Gibson with the the designation G7". (from Paul William Schmidt, Acquired of the Angels)
 
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949Norm

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Anyone with information about United Code Guitars from the 1950s would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
 
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