Gibson Heritage '74

I'm not sure if these attempts to upload the pics of this guitar are working. They are from a GC rep at the Sacramento store. Txbumper told me the F50 I neglected to call "dibs" on is back on the market on Reverb from a South Carolina dealer. But I wanted to float this non-Guild dread out there, offered at the same price. Sitka over rosewood. No bling. Thoughts?

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Lots of differences...

Dreadnought vs. Jumbo

Rosewood vs. Maple

Vintage vs. New (relatively speaking)

The first thing my totally unbiased eye sees with that Gibson is that there is an awfully slim saddle on that bad boy. The photos aren't difinitive. I would ask for some closeups of the bridge from an angle.

Neal

This is my Honest opinion, I have nothing against Gibson as I have owned a few over the years that were great guitars. The Bridge looks to have been re-glued as it appears to be a little crooked in respect to the rest of the lines of the guitar. Now for the bad news. The bridge wood is paper thin which tells me someone has ground it down to try to improve the action without doing a neck reset. There isn't anything left to grind down anymore. The saddle is so short on the already ground down bridge that the strings barely have any break angle at all. Optimum Break angle is 30 degrees. The saddle can go no lower and the bridge can go no lower. The strings are high as the cross the sound hole onto the fretboard and you can tell from the side view that the neck is caving in on the body. This is probably the reason for the bridge grinding and non existence saddle height. Bottom line is this guitar will need a neck reset very soon if not Now and my suspicion is that the intonation is already out as it is. This was not a Highly Valuable Gibson as would be a Hummingbird or a J200 from the same time period. If this is the guitar you buy you will most likely have some serious and expensive repairs to do on her immediately and most likely will not recoup the cost in value. If it was worth a lot more you can be guaranteed that Guitar Center would be asking a lot more.

With the F50 you will be getting a new guitar with a factory warranty that you can play immediately and will be playable for years to come. At the price point for the F50 Standard that you are looking at it should hold it's value nicely. mind you these instruments sold for $1800 when they first came out.

Unless there is sentimental value for the Gibson I personally think you will get far more pleasure and playtime out of the Guild F50 Standard. I am not saying that because I like Guilds. I am trying to be as Neutral as one can looking at the pictures you posted links to. The other thing is, Remember how upset you were that the F50 was gone and you thought you missed out? Now is your chance for it and if you don't like it you should be able to return it. I see a lot of work in that Gibson's future just to get it close to the play ability of a new F50 Standard.

Hope this helps and Good Luck in Whatever you choose!

I shouldn't say anything but I can't help it .. Nice advice tx

That is the ugliest bridge I think I've ever seen lol I have to replace it regardless of value damage if the guitar sounded good . Forgive me for saying so .

One more thing Deebeewhy, I just looked in the Blue Book and it says that the Heritage has Laminated RW back and sides and not the Good Laminated kind like the Guild. Also in Average condition is worth $750-$950. Excellent is $1200-$1500. With the state of the Bridge ad the whole Neck Angle Situation I would rate that one at the bottom of Average or Just Below Average. That gives you something to think about as well.

Thanks much for the excellent feedback. I have been playing 40 years, yet my capacities for making those sorts of judgments (like Neal, like txbumper) about how playable a guitar will be is embarrassingly limited. So I really appreciate the warning about the bridge/saddle issues ("stay away!") and will of course look elsewhere . And you're right about the F50 - I have been eyeing them forever and have no excuse when a suitable one shows up in my price range. And Rayk, yes, I know what you mean about the bridge.

Txbumper, I believe they were into Brasilian S/B a few years before, but even then, I'm not sure if solid. This was supposed to be a stripped-down dread well under the Jumbo and the Dove on their price list, so the laminate makes sense. Thanks for letting me know it's a project.

No problem Deebeewhy, If you ever need an unbiased opinion on something don't be afraid to ask. I do all the time. :encouragement: The blue book said they were all laminated back and sides but then again there have been instances where the it had incomplete information.

Great, I'll take an unbiased opinion on this: are F50 tone woods inferior or at all different on the standard as opposed to traditional series? Or are the differences just cosmetic (headstock, bindings, tuners, rosette, inlays, etc.)?

In my opinion the tonewoods are the same grade for the Standard vs. The Traditional series. The standard series was created to have all of the tone that the traditional guitars had with less appointments and make the guitars more Price friendly for the working musicians. I believe the Sitka tops and Maple back and sides are of the same grade for both series. Where they differ is the standard series has a rosewood fret board and bridge as opposed to an Ebony one for the Traditional series. The only other wood difference is that the standard's have a one piece neck where as the traditional's have a 3 piece neck (5 piece if you count the wings on the headstock). The bracing for Both is Adirondack, I believe the standards have the same bracing design as the traditional's do as well. The only tone difference between a Standard F50 and a Traditional F50 would be the difference in Ebony VS Rosewood on the fret board and bridge. The standards are wonderful guitars and very underated in my opinion. Also I believe some of the later Standards had a Satin finish on the neck as well. Neal will be able to tell you any other differences that they might have as he owns a Standard F50. I have played both the F50 Standard and the F50 Traditional side by side about two years ago and It was hard to tell any difference at all. They both sounded like a Maple Guild Jumbo Arch back to me. I wound up going with the F50R as I am more of a rosewood guy myself. Both guitars had the same neck feel and play ability in my opinion.

Don't know if you need any validation, but if you need yet another opinion, I'm gonna totally agree with txbumper on the Gibson and the Guild. That Gibson is gonna need serious work and ..... I'd just take his advice. It's a project guitar. Best of luck to you!! :encouragement:

deebeewhy said:

Txbumper, I believe they were into Brasilian S/B a few years before, but even then, I'm not sure if solid. This was supposed to be a stripped-down dread well under the Jumbo and the Dove on their price list, so the laminate makes sense.

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I'd like to correct some inaccuracies here about the Gibson Heritage.

The earliest Heritage models were solid Brazilian rosewood in the mid '60s. This changed to laminated Brazilian rosewood in the late '60s. These early Heritage models were less ornate than the Heritage Custom from the early '70s, which is what the OP's guitar in question is (as clearly indicated on the inner label). There apparently was a non-Custom version for a few years that had laminated EI rosewood back & sides, but the Heritage Custom, which is the only version I've repeatedly seen first-hand from this period, had solid rosewood back & sides. The Blue Book of Acoustic Guitars has lots of misinformation, and this particular error continues to reappear with each new volume.

In the late '70s, I owned this exact guitar - an early '70s Heritage Custom. They were actually one of Gibson's most expensive instruments in the catalogs I have, and not at all a stripped down dread. Along with being solid rosewood, the fingerboard & bridge were ebony. Somewhere I still have a price list, and as I recall, only the J200 cost more.

As for the guitar itself, these '70s instruments had Gibson's over-built double-X bracing, which often resulted in a very stiff & less resonant top. But generalizations are meant to be broken, and some Gibsons from this period sounded wonderful (including the one I owned).

But the bottom line regarding this model is that it was produced during what is considered to be Gibson's low point in overall acoustic build quality. You might get lucky & find a good one, but, imho, Gibson's built from 1999 to present are the ones to focus on & seriously consider. In '99, the model line-up was revamped with a major turn towards iconic models from the '50s & '60s, including jumbos, small jumbos, round shoulder dreads, and so on.

So if you're thinking about a Guild F50 jumbo, you might also keep an eye out for any recent version of the Gibson J-100. This model has been made in maple, mahogany, and bubinga. They quite often sound fabulous, and are frequently priced under $1500 used. I happen to own a maple J-100 made in 2000, and it's a serious keeper (along with my maple '94 Guild JF-30, which tonally has a very similar vibe).

Best of luck in your search, and enjoy the process!

Txbumper, that is helpful. I will put the question to Neal, too.

Bobouz: that is really interesting. You have located the Heritage within the Gibson line in a way that is easy for me to absorb. While I have your attention, what is your take on the Sitka over Walnut SJ-100? Knocks $1K off the 200.

My two cents on the F-50 Standard (I own a '12 in sunburst).

There are a couple of thngs that Guild saved money on to offer the Standard Series at a reduced price point. For some of the models, a sitka top replaced Adirondack, which is a big difference. But with the F-50, sitka was used on both Traditional and Standard models, so the basic "guts" are the same.

The F-50 Standard has a rosewood fret board and bridge in lieu of ebony, the neck is two-piece instead of three, the neck is satin finished instead of gloss, and the finishing process is said to have been a little less elaborate (although I can visually see no difference on the nitrocelulose laquer on my F-50 Std and my F-47R). On later Standard Series guitars (after mid-2012), the back and sides are also satin.

And then, of course, there is the "bling" factor. The F-50 Standard has no G shield on the headstock (although the simple Guild logo is inlaid with MOP, very nice!). No elaborate MOP/abalone fret markers, no binding on the headstock and neck.

If you were blindfolded and played an F-50 Standard and an F-50 Traditional back to back, I strongly doubt you would be able to detect any appreciable difference in tone or playability. Which means, to me anyway, that you would be hard-pressed to find a "new" guitar anywhere in the $1000-$1200 price range that could hang with it.

For what it's worth, there is no Chinese Guild equivalent in maple.

Neal

Couple notes...the Guild Standards used "AA" grade Sitka tops, which I presume they meant were not quite as pretty as the Traditionals? I am only aware the D55 had a "AAAA" Sitka top advertised. But grading is so all over the place you pretty much must judge for yourself. Personally I have never seen a "bad" Standard.

Secondly, the first production...and I mean between LMG I and probably II, the sealer on the Standards was synthetic and not lacquer, in an attempt to shorten finishing time...but eventually they went to all lacquer. I would imagine that a sunburst Standard would be late enough in the game so as to be all lacquer. SB seemed to be a pretty well kept secret.

Personally, if you are seeing one you like, I think you should jump on it. No voice of reason from here!

Thanks all.

deebeewhy said:

Bobouz: While I have your attention, what is your take on the Sitka over Walnut SJ-100? Knocks $1K off the 200.

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Body construction will be virtually identical on most recent versions of Gibson's jumbo body, so you are often paying more for bling, specific types of wood, or signature models. This is why most versions of the J-100 offer tremendous value. There was also the J-150, which originally appeared with a maple body, but eventually sported a rosewood model.

As for the use of walnut on the new SJ-100, I personally like walnut a lot. The J-15 (first issued in 2014) features a walnut body & has garnered many positive reviews. The one I have has a tone that is rather close to maple. Very punchy, which I prefer for fingerpicking.

Neal and Txbumper: I decided to go for it just now and got this back on the F50 from the good folks at Yellow Mama Music (S.C.):

I'm sorry I just sold it yesterday and have not had a chance to take it off Reverb. The only Guild I have left is an Orpheum but has a defect from the factory that the Guild Logo came off. If there is anything else you might think about or have any questions, please feel free to call our store at 864-949-0004. We are more than happy to help and work with you. Please give us a call.
Thanks,
Sophia

Sorry to hear that Deebeewhy, Once people know they are available they go pretty quick.