NGD Sweet DV62, But...

billymo

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Well, I got one, a beautiful 1994 Westerly DV62 NT HG Herringbone. The condition, appearance, beauty when it arrived were more than I expected. Very glossy pretty Sitka top, kind of dark, nice. I expected/was hoping for a lot in the tone, and the tone is wonderful, just what I was hoping for, for vocal accompaniment, mild highs and a lot of bold Guild D55-ish, older DV-ish style bass.

Photos at photobucket:
http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/moman555/library/My 1994 Guild DV62?sort=3&page=1 PhotoBucket is quite slow lately....

But..... 20 years old, I think I initially over-reacted after first seeing the action and saddle.

Upon arrival:
  • the action was about 9/64" or 10/64" at the 12th fret. (bad news)
  • the saddle comes out of the bridge only 1/8th inch and the angle of the strings behind the saddle into the peghole slots is not much (bad news) (see photos)
  • relief at the 7th fret, was maybe 0.020 to 0.025" (after placing a capo on the 1st fret, and depressing the 12th fret) (good news)
  • the neck was bowed up, not slight but not a lot, but easy to see (good news)
  • placing a 15" straight edge on top of the frets, then sliding it until it hits the bridge, the bottom of the straight edge is at about 1/16" below the top of the bridge (see photos)
  • the distance (measured at the bridge) from the bottom of the 6th string to the soundboard, is about 7/16"
I put on new D'Addario EJ16 PB Light string on and then adjusted the truss rod until the relief at the 7th fret was about 0.007" and that took the action down really low, very low, perfect or maybe too low, it plays and sounds beautifully now. I found fret buzz only at one location, the 8th fret of the 5th string. I can live with that or sand the fret causing the buzz.

Conclusions:
  • Hopefully I may get 7-10 years out of it before it will need a neck reset, based upon the above measurements using light strings, is that a reasonable expectation?
  • The additional immediate thing to address might be the angle of the strings coming off the back side of small saddle. The action is now so low, I could replace the saddle and adjust the new saddle to be just a little higher than the present saddle, or I could place a shim strip under the existing saddle.
 
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jcwu

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If, after taking the bow out of the neck and getting a good relief, you find that the action might be too low, then you're not really a candidate for a neck reset. If anything, given especially that you have a low saddle, put in a new saddle that's higher and you should be back to having a decent action (not too low).

At least in my understanding, the need for a neck reset comes when the guitar's geometry changes so much that no matter what you adjust, the action is too high. I think it's a rare case that a guitar needs a neck reset because the action is too low.
 

GardMan

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I agree... it sounds like you might be able to raise the saddle just a bit, improving the break angle over the strings. Can you measure the action at the 12th fret... top of fret to bottom of string and report that to us?

If you want to experiment on the cheap...

Dig out a couple of old strings (you did just change them when it arrived, right? First thing I do on a new guitar!)... and cut some saddle-length pieces of a few of them. You now have a couple of temporary shims of different thicknesses that would allow you to gauge how raising the saddle will affect the break angle and action. Strings aren't good permanent shims... and they may not sound great. But they will let you see how the geometry changes. The action will be raised 1/2 the diameter of the string... so a 0.012" high e will raise the action at the 12th by 0.006". A 0.024" G string would raise the action ).012". etc...

Having a new saddle made isn't an expensive proposition... in SLC it runs ~$50. OTOH, I like to use Bob Colosi's bone saddles. A compensated Martin standard drop in saddle costs $25, and takes me about 30-45 minutes to cut and sand to fit. It can be fit just with a couple grits of abrasive paper... but is faster if you have a razor saw to cut tho length. It's even cheaper to make your own saddle from a blank, but requires a bit more in the way of tools.

With a good setup, you might find that resetting the neck is a lifetime away...
 

billymo

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I agree... it sounds like you might be able to raise the saddle just a bit, improving the break angle over the strings. Can you measure the action at the 12th fret... top of fret to bottom of string and report that to us?

If you want to experiment on the cheap...

Dig out a couple of old strings (you did just change them when it arrived, right? First thing I do on a new guitar!)... and cut some saddle-length pieces of a few of them. You now have a couple of temporary shims of different thicknesses that would allow you to gauge how raising the saddle will affect the break angle and action. Strings aren't good permanent shims... and they may not sound great. But they will let you see how the geometry changes. The action will be raised 1/2 the diameter of the string... so a 0.012" high e will raise the action at the 12th by 0.006". A 0.024" G string would raise the action ).012". etc...


Thanks Dave. I do want to increase the string's break angle behind the saddle. I will try the strings shim experiment, and consider the 2 to 1 ratio. Yes, I put on new light strings right away, the strings were very very old, like from 1894. The action at the 12th fret is at about 4/64 or 5/64" presently.

Are you saying that the strip of string used as a shim underneath the saddle, will effect the tone of the guitar? I had thought about installing a permanent shim under the saddle, should that be some type of specific material, or is it just preferable to get a new saddle? Do you know what my 1994 DV62 saddle is made of, bone or??? assuming it's the original.
 
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GardMan

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To me, it sounds like you can raise the action by at least 1/64". 3/32" (= 6/64") is considered a "normal" action by many. I even prefer mine at about 0.105", which is a shade under 7/64". Adding just 1/64" to the action at the 12th corresponds to adding 1/32" in saddle height. That's about the dia of a light gauge D (4th) string. That could give you perfectly acceptable break angle... and could forestall a neck reset for many years.

I don't like shimmed saddles or nuts... but some folks have no problem with them. I just don't think strings are a good material for a shim... tho' I have heard of folks finding them under saddles when they have bought a used guitar. But... they are readily available and a cheap way to see how a shim or taller saddle would change the geometry.

Bob Colosi sells a shim kit that includes thin strips of ebony that are glued on the bottom of the saddle with CA cement. You can either buy the shims by themselves, or a whole kit with glue and instructions. Bob's products are first rate, IMO... and prior to my recent sell off, 8 of 9 of my Guilds had Colosi saddles (and one had Colosi bridge pins). Four of my five current Guilds have Colosi saddles
 
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Neal

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On an instrument that fine, I would invest the addtional $ to take it to a luthier for a new saddle and set-up. Money very well spent, assuming you know someone who is competent. You might want to play it a bit first, as is, so that you can tell the luthier exactly what you want done. My luthier does not like to set up a new guitar of mine until I have played it long enough to get acquainted and can communicate what about the set-up I would like changed. Tastes vary.

I like the idea of trying a few different thicknesses of shim to dial in how you like your saddle height, but would resist the use of a permanent shim, as it is not as hard as bone and does not provide uninterrupted vibration from string through saddle to bridge/bridgeplate. On a $400 guitar, no prob. On a DV-62, go the extra mile and do it just right.

Neal
 

billymo

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I've been playing and singing with it now for about 5 hours total since lowering the action and letting the new strings settle down. I am enjoying this smooth, rich sound. I'll probably get a new saddle and set up in about a month, I don't want to change anything right now and I don't really want to be separated from it yet by leaving it with my luthier. I feel like some guys told me about this really super great place to go where the experience is extremely soothing and pleasurable then, I finally was able to check it out, and now I'm there, taking it all in, it's as if I knew this place existed, and the guys are thinking, yeah, another one has found the Westerly DVs.
 
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frenchie

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Congrats on the DV-62 Billymo. I guess that means I can take the armed guards off of my JV-52!:laughing:

Having seen your photo`s I can tell you, that you certainly, do "NOT" need a neck reset. I would reduce the neck relief, and raise the saddle. A shim is fine, as it allows you to account for seasonal changes, meaning that some months you will need the shim, and others not. The original saddle was made out of Micarta, and I recommend changing to bone.

I like to have just under 3mm - 3/32nds, and just about 2mm - 1/16th gap between top of 12th fret and bottom of bass & treble "E" strings, at the 12th fret. This is a good starting point for any adjustment.

You don`t need to change the Micarta nut unless it is badly cut or ill fitting.

You can use various thicknesses of modeller`s plastic card for shim material. Just make sure that it is the same length and width as the saddle slot/saddle. 0.10/0.20 is usually thick enough.

Give it a good set up and I am sure you will have many enjoyable years together.

Steve.
 
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chazmo

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Billy, get a real, bone saddle. Fitting it yourself isn't hard, or you can have a luthier do it for you and set it up properly.

Be careful with the truss rod adjustments, though. You really might want to take this to a luthier to sort out. Please note that all truss rods use force to compensate for bowing of the neck between frets 1 and 14 (or 12, in a 12-fret), and *not* adjust neck angle. A single-action truss rod like you have in the DV-62 applies force to compensate for forward bowing when you tighten it, and it "pulls" the neck back down. Very likely someone has way over-tightened the rod to get your guitar in a back-bow situation. Under tension, you want to tweak the truss rod in small increments and loosen it (counter-clockwise, usually). You should notice immediate change in neck angle pulling forward as you loosen this (and in your case straightening out). Small increments. And very little torque should be needed to do the adjustment.

In any case, you need to get the neck geometry right before mucking with the setup. That's my advice at least.
 

billymo

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GardMan, chazmo, frenchie, Neal, jcwu, thank you so much for the help and comments. I was not happy at first, thinking my NGD DV62 may need a neck reset, and I'm now finally relaxing and enjoying my it.
 
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Aristera

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Any electronics? I had a K&K pure mini installed in my DV-62. Since you're in need of a new saddle why not have both done at the same time.
 
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