Protecting my Nitrocellulose Finish - Carnauba Wax?

wisconsindead

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
165
Reaction score
0
Well I've begun to notice some wear on the back of the neck on my starfire due to sweaty hands, or specifically my thumb. I have some chipping and I literally think I can feel it wearing away as I play. I posted a thread over at TB and they suggest Carnauba Wax for the nitro finish.

Anyone used it on their guilds or other instruments? The finish is so nice on this starfire and I'd really like to protect it as much as I can. Especially since its the only bass I play and therefore gets its fair share of use.
 

SFIV1967

Venerated Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
18,442
Reaction score
8,956
Location
Bavaria / Germany
Guild Total
8
Pure Carnauba Wax is o.k., you just need to investigate (product safety datasheets are usually a good source) that whatever product you use will not contain any (!) and I mean any silicone. Lots of usual "guitar" products use silicone! Not good at all for vintage instruments...
I am using Virtuoso: http://www.virtuosopolish.com/page13.php

Slick_ad_92700.jpg


Ralf
 
Last edited:

mavuser

Enlightened Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
8,128
Reaction score
2,636
Location
New York
I once bought a guitar online, a Gibson melody maker, and when it arrived it was coated in carnauba wax! Ugh I hated it! I don't believe you could ever get the wax out when it fills in the natural grain of the wood...I Padded it with a bunch of cash and traded it locally for a 66 Guild Jetstar, which turned out to be a great move, so in the end I wasn't so broken up about it. But I don't understand why someone would put carnauba wax on a guitar. Are you going to leave it out in the rain? Just hit it with a clear coat of nitro over the OG finish. I would think for a player bass after almost 50 years that's ok. That is the best way to protect the integrity of the wood itself (so the neck wood doesn't ultimately start to separate). I don't believe car wax would seal it up like that, more just "protect" the finish (but in my mind ruin it)...just my opinion
 
Last edited:

SFIV1967

Venerated Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
18,442
Reaction score
8,956
Location
Bavaria / Germany
Guild Total
8
This will protect the finish and prevent sweat damage?
Virtuoso will protect the finish. Carnauba, see below. But sweat is a difficult topic as it depends on the players "type of sweating".
Here is what Virtuoso said:
"Carnuba wax have no inherent cleaning capabilities. You are removing fingerprints and dust more from the friction of rubbing the polish in than any cleaning function of the product. Another downside of carnuba wax is that it builds up on your finish.
As the years go by, the chemicals in your sweat react with them and you wind up with a hazy finish in the area where your skin comes into contact with your musical instrument. This is readily apparent in the lower bass bout of most vintage instruments, especially in ones with dark finishes. How many black Les Pauls and sunburst acoustics have you seen with a hazy half moon where your arm rests? Virtuoso Premium Polish and Virtuoso Premium Cleaner are different. Virtuoso Premium Cleaner is designed to attack any organic based substance found on your finish and remove it. Virtuoso Premium Polish does the same thing, although it's cleaning properties are not as strong as Virtuoso Premium Cleaner. Virtuoso Premium Polish is more of a protection product. During an application the polish seals your finish with a strong glaze that helps slow down the oxidation of your finish and protect the color of the wood or the pigment in the painted or stained finish with an inherent UV filter. This will help your musical instrument look new longer or help keep your vintage musical instrument from fading. This glaze is also fingerprint resistant, allowing you to go weeks or months without another application. Simply get a clean cloth and wipe your instrument to restore the brilliant luster."

I think it also depends if the finish is still undamaged or if large parts are missing and pure wood is exposed. Any polish on pure wood will darken the wood versus the lacquered parts. So applying any polish might make the look worse. As mavuser said, it's never a good idea to put any wax or polish on bare wood! (or through the cracks of damaged lacquer!)
Ralf
 
Last edited:

wisconsindead

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
165
Reaction score
0
hmm. Well I think damaging some of the spots where finish has been removed is better than continued removal of the finish. I'll look into getting some of this virtuoso stuff.
 

davismanLV

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
19,196
Reaction score
11,812
Location
U.S.A. : Nevada : Las Vegas
Guild Total
2
Everything Ralf said is true. And mostly the thing you can do to protect from sweat damage, is to prevent it. Try wearing long-sleeves when playing. That will keep most of the damage from happening in the first place. Also, once you're through playing, wipe down with a damp soft cloth, followed by a dry one. Don't let sweat sit on the finish.
 

mavuser

Enlightened Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
8,128
Reaction score
2,636
Location
New York
hmm. Well I think damaging some of the spots where finish has been removed is better than continued removal of the finish. I'll look into getting some of this virtuoso stuff.

As Ralf posted, there is no benefit to hitting the unfinished wood with guitar polish. That can likely only be a bad thing. If it's time to add a clear coat of nitro finish to the neck, I don't believe there is any substitute for that. Polish it after that! I think that's what u need to do man. Maybe not today, but ultimately...from the sounds of it, the sooner the better.

Davisman, long sleeves is great advice for protecting that sunburst top! But he's talking about the back of the neck, primarily.
 

SFIV1967

Venerated Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
18,442
Reaction score
8,956
Location
Bavaria / Germany
Guild Total
8
If it's time to add a clear coat of nitro finish to the neck, I don't believe there is any substitute for that. Polish it after that! I think that's what u need to do man. Maybe not today, but ultimately...from the sounds of it, the sooner the better.
That's what I did on my '67 Starfire IV. Everytime I played it I had cherry color bits and pieces on my hand, it was just flaking away everywhere on the neck, almost like dust. So I put a few thin coats of fresh clear nitro on the back of the neck, waited a long time, sanded/polished it in between coats and it's fine for another 30 years I guess. Nitro will just dry out and flake away after many years, that's the nature of it.
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Technique/Finish/Lacquer/Amalgamator/amalgamator1.html
Ralf
 

wisconsindead

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
165
Reaction score
0
damn. Sounds like more work than I wanted. Is it easy to do yourself? I have no experience.

And does the virtuoso work for fretboards...?
 

davismanLV

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
19,196
Reaction score
11,812
Location
U.S.A. : Nevada : Las Vegas
Guild Total
2
Davisman, long sleeves is great advice for protecting that sunburst top! But he's talking about the back of the neck, primarily.
Oooops. My bad. I suppose mittens are out of the question..... :stupid:

Wisconsin, DO NOT use the Virtuoso or any type of wax or polish on any unfinished wood LIKE a FRETBOARD. Those you can clean with 0000 steel wood, wipe with a damp cloth and then dry. You might put some fretboard oil or conditioner on the fretboard MAYBE once a year. It doesn't require much. No polish or waxes, though.
 
Last edited:

chazmo

Super Moderator
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
25,443
Reaction score
7,105
Location
Central Massachusetts
You can buy nitro "pens" from Stewart-MacDonald, wisconsin. Easy peasy patch jobs. I don't know how well those work on necks though.
 

mavuser

Enlightened Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
8,128
Reaction score
2,636
Location
New York
damn. Sounds like more work than I wanted. Is it easy to do yourself? I have no experience.

And does the virtuoso work for fretboards...?

I have a ton of confidence in u after u going for the jugular on that suck switch, however, this neck nitro thing is not something you want to screw up. I have a JS1 bass like that, you can see the original finish and essentially the entire guitar is that way. there are wear areas. but parts of it are either sprayed or brushed, or both in different areas of the instrument, with clear nitro. parts of the instrument are untouched and purely the original finish. They did a really nice job. looks like an easy job, for someone that knows what they are doing. you have to let it dry a long time, that is all I know about it.

also I only use lemon oil on rosewood fretboards. not too much, as posted above!
 

davismanLV

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
19,196
Reaction score
11,812
Location
U.S.A. : Nevada : Las Vegas
Guild Total
2
Lacquer is both easy and tricky. If you're going to refinish the neck, you want it smooth and flawless. Best chance at getting a good job is to take all existing finish off and sand the hell out of it. If anyone has EVER used any polishes or cleaners with silicone, you're kinda doomed. You CAN recover from that but.... it takes a LOT of time and is more complicated than just spraying lacquer.

So then you have to mask and spray the lacquer. Lacquer dries really quickly. At least, between coats, you don't need it to be fully dry. You sand and rough it up and then spray again. And again. And again. I've put up to 3 coats of lacquer over the course of a day. If there's silicone in the wood, then you'll get what they call "fish eye" where the lacquer pulls away from certain areas. Looks like the left side of this image:

d2l2.jpg


Then you have a real problem. You could always give it a try. If it doesn't work, then take it to a pro. If you decide to do it yourself, I'd prep and sand it and use a spit-coat (3 parts denatured alcohol to 1 part shellac) before you do any lacquer spraying. Deft makes the best lacquer. It's over by wood finishes not in the spray paint section and it's called Deft Clear Wood Finish. It's lacquer. Has a fairly decent spray nozzle on it as well.
 

SFIV1967

Venerated Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
18,442
Reaction score
8,956
Location
Bavaria / Germany
Guild Total
8
I wouldn't sand the neck as you take the original color of the neck that way, I rather would just spray a few thin coats to bind and soften the old lacquer (a bit similar to that Frank Ford link I posted above, just way thinner). That way the neck will have spots with colored lacquer and spots of bare wood with lacquer. The old lacquer by now is so thin that it will just melt in.
Instead of doing it yourself I would probably bring it to a good luthier to do that small repair, especially if one never did such things before, I would not try to do it on a vintage instrument for the first time.

Regarding the fretboard one possibility is tiny amounts of lemon oil once a year at the maximum: http://www.jimdunlop.com/product/fretboard-65-ultimate-lemon-oil
Just be careful not to let lemon oil on the nitrocellulose finish as that will also somewhat attack it as far as I read. Hence tiny amounts and just on the fretboard, just enough to darken the wood again. (can also be done with acoustic guitar bridges that way). You don't want to end up with oily fingers during playing.
Also, don't use lemon oil on maple fretboards like on Fender Stratocasters. Lemon oil is only good for unfinished ebony or rosewood fingerboards. There are other special prepared oils as well, but a lot of "magic" regarding such other oils around internet forums...an endless topic!
Ralf
 
Last edited:

Walter Broes

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2005
Messages
5,892
Reaction score
1,957
Location
Antwerp, Belgium
Don't worry about it too much. Just play the guitar, putting all kinds of crap on top of nitro is not going to help it or protect it. It'll wear, but even if it does, the wood underneath will still be sealed, so no worries there.

And the cool thing about nitro is that a fresh coat is going to blend in with the old finish, so if the neck finish wears out too much for your taste, you can have the neck refinished, or refinish it yourself. (not that hard)

My main player is an old X175 that doesn't have *any* finish left on the back of the neck, and the neck is just fine, and very stable.
 

wisconsindead

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
165
Reaction score
0
Chazmo,
Nirto Pens eh? That sounds like the easiest solution. Is it as easy as application and buffing?

DavismanLV,
I don't want to get into sanding or anything like that. I'm not going to try refinishing the neck, getting that sunburst correct would be difficult even for a pro IMO. Im sure it could be done but I would assume getting the colors proper would be pretty hard.

Ralf,
I think a clear coat is the best route to take, ultimately. I'll look into pricing from a local luthier. People mention this melting of coats into one another with nitro. Could this cause the sunburst to change slightly? Like can the colors move or blend more? Also, Wouldn't the finish need to be as clean as possible? It has some paint marks, scuffs, missing chips etc. I would think putting a coat on top of all of this would be bad.

Walter Bros,
I'm not worried about the stability of the neck, I'm worried about preserving the finish. So neglecting it would be the opposite of where I want to go.

mavuser,
I agree that its not something I want to tackle. Cutting wires and soldering is much easier than doing finish. I've actually been meaning to draw up a circuit diagram of a starfire for use by others and to finally determine why the suck switch does what it does when off. I'm nearly positive its the equivalent of a tone pot or two rolled all the way back (i.e. capacitors always in line).

Finally, Ill try using some Lemon Oil on the fretboard. I've cleaned it with Naptha once or twice since I got it but I think that may have been a bad idea because it removes all of the oils from the board leaving it look a little... pastel in color richness.
 

Walter Broes

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2005
Messages
5,892
Reaction score
1,957
Location
Antwerp, Belgium
I'm not worried about the stability of the neck, I'm worried about preserving the finish. So neglecting it would be the opposite of where I want to go.
I'm not really telling you to neglect it, but wiping it down with a soft rag after you're done playing, and storing it properly in a friendly environment is really all you can do.
Putting all kinds of gunk or polish on it is just going to make it shine a little bit, it's not going to make it keep for longer- and it might actually accomplish the opposite.

It's a finish - and you can't really put another finish or coat on it - you can put nitro on top of almost everything, but there's nothing you can put on top of nitro except more nitro. It's a finish that keeps gassing off for extremely long is the "why" of it.
 

jcwu

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2008
Messages
2,958
Reaction score
37
Location
San Jose, CA
My main player is an old X175 that doesn't have *any* finish left on the back of the neck, and the neck is just fine, and very stable.

Does that go all the way down to the wood? I've seen some guitars where the gloss and shine are gone, and the color coat is gone, but it seems there is still the clearcoat that remains, so at least it's not completely naked wood that's exposed. Is your X175 all the way down to the wood? I'm curious. :)
 

Walter Broes

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2005
Messages
5,892
Reaction score
1,957
Location
Antwerp, Belgium
Does that go all the way down to the wood? I've seen some guitars where the gloss and shine are gone, and the color coat is gone, but it seems there is still the clearcoat that remains, so at least it's not completely naked wood that's exposed. Is your X175 all the way down to the wood? I'm curious. :)
All the way down to the wood indeed. Don't have a camera handy, but I'll try to take a pic soon.
 
Top