Looking for some parts for my new [1997?] Westerly D4

Sperry

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Just picked this up, and the only info I can find on it is that the list price in 2001 was $899.

The serial number does not quite match the "dating chart" but the guitar might be just past a 1996.

The bridge pins do not match and the saddle is high. Does anyone have exact specs on these two items?

I think the pins are 4.2D, but that is not a stock size around these parts. A little more than 5mm ???

How about the bridge? Is it standard? 2 13/16" x ??? x 3/32"
 

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First of all, hi and welcome to the forum!
We have had a bunch of threads on bridge pins, but I haven't really read them. (Oops)

could you clarify the bridge issue? Pics might help.
 

AcornHouse

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Hi and Welcome! I used to own a D4, and the bridge pins were just plastic. I replaced them with an ebony set, but any quality set would be an improvement. Pins are typically fitted to the holes, and vice versa, with a tapered reamer.
Same deal with the saddle. As long as it fits snug in the slot, the height is meant to be adjusted to get an optimum string height over the frets. You can replace it with a bone saddle for improved tone, and sand the bottom to lower the string height.
a pic will help determine the originality of the bridge. The shape is as important as the dimensions. You will need to host the pic on an external site like photobucket, and link to it here.


Taking it to a luthier for bone nut and saddle and pins of your choice will make your D4 that much better. I only ssold mine because I became uncomfortable with the dread size. The student I sold it to is loving it.
 
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Sperry

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I only sold mine because I became uncomfortable with the dread size.

Myself, I went from a Wechter Traveller 1710E (often called a baby guitar, 23" scale, 35" overall length) to the dreadnaught. But I'd prefer an F-30 or 000-18.

I'll get some closeups of the bridge. I was hoping someone would know what the specs should be, and I could order one to the right size. I've never trimmed a bridge, but it shouldn't be too hard to sand it, fit it, test, etc. Trying to figure out how to recreate a fully-conpensated saddle seems to be beyond my patience and skill. If I have to buy a radiused blank, and it looks like that is going to be the plan, I'll wing it.

Oh, I do not want to trim the plastic bridge on the guitar. In case it gets lowered and the strings start buzzing. So I'm going to buy a few once I get the right size figured out.

On the pins, I did use the search but nothing concrete came up, except for a member that stated that his Guilds have used, to date, FOUR DIFFERENT PIN SIZES. Crikey!

No, the guitar is not going to a luthier to have the holes reamed out to fit whatever he wants to install. I should be able to find the right size. They are narrower than any I've saved in the past 35 years, but once I find a supply, I'll get a matched set [which the guitar does not now have.

However, if the resonance will improve with a tighter pin set, I'd consider making the investment in a reamer and getting a set of larger pins. The guitar already sounds pretty darn sweet, though.

There was a 6" impact crack on the side which I superglued flush. From the interior I'll also bridge the crack with a series of 1/32" thick postage-sized mahogany cleats set in Titebond II. Then tightly outline the exterior of the crack in blue painter's tape and knock down / smooth over the glue joint in 400 grit then fine steel wool.
 

adorshki

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I'll get some closeups of the bridge. I was hoping someone would know what the specs should be, and I could order one to the right size. I've never trimmed a bridge, but it shouldn't be too hard to sand it, fit it, test, etc. Trying to figure out how to recreate a fully-conpensated saddle seems to be beyond my patience and skill. If I have to buy a radiused blank, and it looks like that is going to be the plan, I'll wing it.
Hi Sperry, welcome aboard!
Couple of preliminary observations:
A D4 is basically a D25 less the headstock faceplate with a pearloid logo, and a couple of other minor cosmetic details depending on year of make. D25's and D4's even share serial number sequence from '95 forward. Fender bought Guild in '95 and there's a group here that believes that the "Fender Westerly" period ('96-'01) was a high point for them QC- wise, based on input from a member who used to work in Westerly (and the quality of our instruments).
You can see a date on the heelblock bevel of the guitar, you have to hold it just right to see it through the soundhole, but it should be there. That's the date the "superstructure" (guitar body less hardware) was completed and there's generally a lag of a fcouple of weeks to a couple of months (depending on the model) until it's actually completed and had the s/n stamped into the headstock and goes to finishing. THAT step sets the "official" year of manufacture. For those guitars at that time, I suspect it was less than a month before it got finished.
I have a '96 or '7 D25 myself.
It's stamped "Oct 31 96" on the heelblock and I bought it new in March of '97, not sure how long it was in the store, but it was a display/demo piece for at least 3 weeks before I got it. Gives you an idea that it was probably less than 90 days from date stamp to "shipped out"
I do not want to trim the plastic bridge on the guitar. In case it gets lowered and the strings start buzzing. So I'm going to buy a few once I get the right size figured out.
Lowring the saddle's really no big deal, but understand that Guild kept a stock of bridges of varying heights to match to the neck angle once the neck was set.
Target spec was for a combined height of bridge and saddle of about 1/2" plus or minus maybe up to a 16th".
That 1/2" height is pretty commonly accepted as being optimal for string energy transfer into the soundboard.
SO, taking a straightedge and laying it on top of the frets along the neck (long enough to extend back over the 12th fret at least for accurate measure), extend it to the bridge and ideally it will meet the top of the bridge. If it does that your bridge height and neck angle are good, and that's where you need to start to get the best possible set-up.
MY D25, all original, has a bridge height of 5/16" at the top of its arch and a saddle height 5/32" for combined height of 15/32"; just 1/32 under that 1/2" ideal. The saddle height at just over 1/8" inch is consdered ideal for gtting a good string "break angle", this enhances energy transfer to the top.
Ok, once you know bridge/saddle are "within tolerance", you can check action height at 12th fret: Guild spec'd 5.5-6/64" under bass E and 4.5-5/64" under treble.
All of mine came out of the box that way and it's perfect for me with my fairly percussive and heavy handed style.
Should also note that all late Westerly Guild dreads were shipped with LIGHT gauge strings, .012-.053, and several of us believe mediums won't improve volume on those guitars as they put too much tension "preload" into the the tops, inhibiting vibration.
So, if you want to lower action at the 12th fret, you must remove twice as much material from the saddle as you wish to lower the action by. If you want to lower by 1/32", you need to lower the saddle by 1/16".
A final note is that the saddle profile is curved to match the fretboard radius, 12" for Guild at that time, so be careful if you're modifying the top of the saddle.
RE: bone saddle/nut/pins:
In my recollection it's virtually unanimous opionion around here that bone saddle will give the most improvement in tone/volume, followed by a bone nut (enhances open strings only, but that's good for my technique, so I got 'em both), and very few people claim to be able to hear an improvement with upgraded pins even if they do like the aesthetics.

On the pins, I did use the search but nothing concrete came up, except for a member that stated that his Guilds have used, to date, FOUR DIFFERENT PIN SIZES. Crikey!
. Right, we do know search can be bit rough.
I think that was Dapmdave or Gardman, right, and to put it in perspective, his selection spans like 20 years, right? (with humor, not scolding)
It might ease your search for pins if you looked for D25 pins since that model was w--a-a-y more commonly produced.
However, if the resonance will improve with a tighter pin set, I'd consider making the investment in a reamer and getting a set of larger pins. The guitar already sounds pretty darn sweet, though.
Some of us think that wrapping some sandpaper around slightly oversize pins and gradually adjusting 'em down is a little safer for the bridge, if nothing else. :wink:
Good luck!
 
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SFIV1967

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Oh, I do not want to trim the plastic bridge on the guitar. In case it gets lowered and the strings start buzzing. So I'm going to buy a few once I get the right size figured out.
Welcome to LTG! I don't think your approach will work as basically every bridge is somewhat "custom". A lot of big guitar companies don't sell ready made bridges but request that you let them make one.
Anyway, that is your problem, but here is what Taylor recommends as procedure:

Always adjust the truss rod first and second adjust the action, not vice versa.
And the guitar need to be tuned to pitch when you do it.

Here is a good Taylor tech sheet about it: http://c3.zzounds.com/media/truss_rod_adjustment-c53669fbee160b82ed2b3d44fed49ac3.pdf

Now after you are 100% sure that your truss rod is set correctly, you can now check the action on the 12th fret.

In a previous Guild owners manual Guild wrote for the 12th fret test:
On the low E string: The gap should be from .085" to .093" (5.5/64" to 6/64").
On the high E string: The gap should be .070" to .078" (4.5/64" to 5/64").

Since I posted Taylor's tech sheets as example, they use 6/64" (low e-string) and 4/64" (high e-string) as standard settings.

Here is their guide for checking the action (and adjusting the saddle if needed): http://c3.zzounds.com/media/action-7ff530daa50f07b282eb101094a987d4.pdf

Using a 6" ruler (with 1/32" and 1/64" increments) does an excellent job here. I bought such one from an Automotive shop, as millimeter is not fine enough for action measurements.
That below right picture shows already a slightly too high action (8/64" instead of 6/64" in that case).

rule.jpg
ruler.jpg


Now to check the nut follow this procedure:

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/GenSetup/NutAction/nutaction.html

Regarding serial number. If you want to have the exact manufacturing year tell Hans Moust your serial number and he can tell you the year of manufacture. You can contact him here: http://www.guitarchives.nl/guitarsgalore/contact.php

Here's some info on the D4 model: http://westerlyguildguitars.com/guitars/d4hr.html

I hope that helps!

Ralf
 
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Sperry

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Wow, thanks thanks thanks! for all the detail!

I played another hour and a half today. It is certainly a step up from my Wechter in sound quality!!!

I didn't see a date on the heelblock bevel. Even used a mirror with flashlight. And a camera. I'll look closer tomorrow.

The reenforcement of the crack is going exceptionally well. I picked up 1/32" basswood and Titebond and cut three business card sized pieces. Loosened the strings and tied three, brought the string around the back, and pulled back the other three to the string. Nine linear inches of cleat over a six inch crack. I used a little blue painter's tape on the edges to keep it from curling, and it seems to be drying perfectly.

The bridge saddle was off, so I measured it. 2 7/16" x 13/32" x 3/32". And found one online that should work well for experimenting. After that gets settled, I'll order a couple bone saddles, and get it perfect. I actually found the right bone saddle after I ordered the plastic, except that it is too thick, so I'll probably get that moving sooner rather than later.

Since the pressure was off the strings, I pulled a pin and measured it. Sure enough, it is within a hundredth of of a Size 4.2D. At some point two pins were lost or damaged; the guitar has a full set but they do not match. For now, I'll try to find a correct set eventually, rather than ream the bridge. Hey, I like the idea with the sandpaper! I think I heard of it a few decades ago, but had forgotten.

The diameter at the top of the shaft is 0.207” and tapers down to 0.144” with a long (0.945") shaft. The slot runs the full length of the shaft, stopping below the ball. These pins do not have a skirt - just a slight ridge beneath the ball. The slot does penetrate this ridge. We have only seen this pin on Guild guitars.

Pictures will be forthcoming after the crack and action are the way I want them.

Thanks again for the info! I'll be rereading your responses several times!
 

Sperry

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All finished! The "cleating", pieces of 1/32" wood glued from the inside across the length of the crack, came out famously!

Taped off and knocked down the exterior glue seam with emory paper and steel wool. Buffed over the area with a little clear finish. Unless you're looking for it or know it is there, or see it from the right angle, it is unnoticeable.

Took a little off the saddle, and it looks like we're smack on 5/64ths, with no buzzing.

Now to track down a few more of the Size 4.2D bridge pins!

ScreenShot2014-08-21at94130AM_zps5d92e56d.png


ScreenShot2014-08-21at94205AM_zpse9031481.png


ScreenShot2014-08-21at94224AM_zps8fb4ccbb.png


ScreenShot2014-08-21at94100AM_zps2d3ab3b5.png
 
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adorshki

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Wow, thanks thanks thanks! for all the detail!
Yer welcome! (on Ralf's behalf too)
I didn't see a date on the heelblock bevel. Even used a mirror with flashlight. And a camera. I'll look closer tomorrow.
Just to be clear, I did mean the neck's heel block, and it should have a bevel on both sides of the flat front that faces into the body of the guitar. I don't remember which side it's on on my D25, but I know I didn't actually notice it until I saw it by accident one night while I was just eyeballing the workmanship inside of what was then my 2-month -old guitar. In fact, it might have been the first string change so it was just a little easier to look inside the soundhole. I'd be a bit surprised if it's actually missing since several new members have found theirs after we've told 'em where to look.
If it's actually a lot earlier than a '97, say a '93, it MIGHT be stamped on the inside surface of the top. But if your s/n starts with "AD04" I'd expect it to be on the heel block.
:wink:
Nice lookin' work by the way!
 
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Sperry

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Nice lookin' work by the way!

I put the center one on first and made a mess with the glue. Duh! Then the back cleat. Then the front. Last one didn't seem to line up with the others, and that errant millimeter really bites me on the butt!

Just to be clear, I did mean the neck's heel block

Camera, mirrors, flashlight, I even checked the heels on my Alden loafers. Turns out, one does not need a mirror. Just a good flashlight and a fresh perspective. APR 11 2000

I'm already looking for another damaged guitar to continue my new interest.
 
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