The AP Aristocrat is here

JohnW63 · Aug 25, 2014

Sounds like someone doesn't expect good stuff out of California.

G&L Guitars are out here. So is Taylor. Larrivee is down the street from Cordoba. Santa Cruz of course.

That's off the top of my head. Probably a lot more.

Don't get me wrong! I would have PREFERRED they stayed at New Hartford and kept making them and Ovations there. That Fender has messed everything up and closed down Ovation US and sold Guild sucks. But, I am very glad someone thought enough about the brand to BUY them from Fender and keep making them !

Gibson is not in New England, and they make darn good electrics.

SFIV1967 · Aug 26, 2014

mbuc said:
I thought you might be interested to know that there is a label inside. Nice treat! The NS Aristocrats have a ghost label under the bridge pickup as I have been told.

That's interesting! Thanks for posting! Since you had the pickup removed: Were there any labels on the bottom of the pickup? Like a green RoHS label? And a BHK marked second label? What was the color of the cable at the neck pickup? Red? Just curious.
Ralf

mbuc · Aug 26, 2014

SFIV1967 said:
That's interesting! Thanks for posting! Since you had the pickup removed: Were there any labels on the bottom of the pickup? Like a green RoHS label? And a BHK marked second label? What was the color of the cable at the neck pickup? Red? Just curious.
Ralf

Wow! Those are questions! If I only had known them before. I am awfully sorry but I can't remember if there were labels on the pickups, I did the whole thing just to see if there is a label in the guitar. Here are the other pictures I have shot but none shows the bottom of a pickup. At least one question seems to be answered: The cable to the neck pickup was red. But why on earth is that interesting? The pickups should be the same as in all other new Guild electrics with single coils (GSR T-500 and AP AA excluded of course). I apologize that I cannot help you with your other questions.

SFIV1967 · Aug 27, 2014

mbuc said:
I am awfully sorry but I can't remember if there were labels on the pickups, I did the whole thing just to see if there is a label in the guitar. ...At least one question seems to be answered: The cable to the neck pickup was red. But why on earth is that interesting?

Not a problem at all! I was just curious as Mike Lewis had told me at NAMM 2013 that the American Patriarch pickups are the same as the Newark St. pickups and I think some members think or thought they are different pickups. Now seeing the blue cable for the bridge pickup and the red cable for the neck pickup makes me think they are indeed the same like the NS pickups (as they had those features). At least it looks like they removed the connector (as the NS pickups are plugged in) and soldered them into the wiring harness for the AP models. And the mentioned BHK marked label would confirm that BHK made them, but it looks exactly like that anyway.
What BHK is was discussed here: http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...ups-for-Sale&p=1630177&viewfull=1#post1630177
Interesting also to see those shims under the bridge pickup.
Thanks for all the pictures!
Ralf

Walter Broes · Aug 27, 2014

That looks like exactly the same pickup as on the Korean made guitars. Which I don't know I'm 100% cool with considering the prices of the AP guitars.

bluesypicky · Aug 27, 2014

Walter Broes said:
That looks like exactly the same pickup as on the Korean made guitars. Which I don't know I'm 100% cool with considering the prices of the AP guitars.

Ain't that the truth..... (but not trying to p!$$ on anyone's corn flakes here)

mbuc · Aug 27, 2014

Walter Broes said:
That looks like exactly the same pickup as on the Korean made guitars. Which I don't know I'm 100% cool with considering the prices of the AP guitars.

A justified objection. I have nothing to add other than I like how they sound. I know you don't...

Don't worry Pascal, I don't eat corn flakes, haha!

bluesypicky · Aug 27, 2014

mbuc said:
Don't worry Pascal, I don't eat corn flakes, haha!

:very_drunk:

Walter Broes · Aug 27, 2014

I know that how they perform is really what it comes down to, and that's that. And the fact that I'm not crazy about them is just because they're not what I'm used to, not that they're bad pickups.

But on principle, it is kind of an odd thing. Similar price-range US made guitars generally don't have cheap Korean pickups.

mbuc · Aug 27, 2014

Walter Broes said:
I know that how they perform is really what it comes down to, and that's that. And the fact that I'm not crazy about them is just because they're not what I'm used to, not that they're bad pickups.

But on principle, it is kind of an odd thing. Similar price-range US made guitars generally don't have cheap Korean pickups.

I agree completely. In fact I think it would have been adequate to have the AP Franz made by Seymour Duncan like the ones he made for the GSR T-500. I really don't know what kept Guild from doing this, especially as so few APs have been made. Maybe Seymour wanted to much $$ for it. But I also don't know if I would have liked my Aristocrat better with the Duncan Franz. Probably not, although I have started to like them lately on the T-500.

SFIV1967 · Aug 27, 2014

Walter Broes said:
Similar price-range US made guitars generally don't have cheap Korean pickups.

Well, now the question is what "cheap" means. If you mean "production cost" I guess the reason is that a US made almost 100% copy of a Franz would be way more expensive than a Korean made similar copy, especially looking at the low volume of the AP pickups vs the NS pickups. Now if both are "almost 100%" copies, why is the much more expensive better than the "cheaper" one? I am not arguing, just saying. Price is not always showing how good a thing is. And who knows, maybe they (BHK) wound them different for the AP models, we don't know as we don't have the FMIC part number for the AP pickups to compare with the part number for the NS pickups.
Ralf

Walter Broes · Aug 27, 2014

There might be all kinds of reasons for that - the Korean factory tooled up for Franz repros, which I'm told is pretty expensive. Maybe (and I'm speculating!) The Korean Factory didn't want to supply just pickup parts to be finished somewhere else, and maybe companies like Duncan don't want to use another factory's parts. Having a company like Duncan tool up for pickups for guitars they were only going to sell ten or twenty a year of wouldn't have made any kind of economic sense, in any case.

Funny when you think of it. The T-500's came with US custom shop Duncans, and folks like myself were saying "but they don't LOOK like Franz pickups!!", the Korean pickups are near perfect physical Franz repros, and I'm all "but they're cheaply made in Korea, and they don't sound exactly like the old ones I have!!". Picky bunch we are.

Walter Broes · Aug 27, 2014

SFIV1967 said:
Now if both are "almost 100%" copies, why is the much more expensive better than the "cheaper" one? I am not arguing, just saying. Price is not always showing how good a thing is.

Looks like we cross-posted there Ralf!

But to reply to what I quoted from your post : I'm not going to say something like "not to be a total snob", because I can't deny that I am one. Haha. But.....that said, I've played plenty of far-eastern made pickups that were perfectly passable, useable pickups, and sound good. But I've never played one that made me stop in my tracks and go "WHOA!!". And whether it's vintage Franzes, Gibsons, DeArmonds or even Danelectro and Kay pickups, or brand new Lollar or Duncan pickups, I've played and own plenty of US made pickups that really do have that "special something" that's hard to describe in words, but is definitely there.

I know a vintage type electric guitar pickup is basically just a coil and some magnets, but apparently the beauty IS in the details. If in a recording session, myself, producers and engineers keep going for certain guitars, it's because of something we're hearing, not an imaginairy idea, looks, "made in..." stickers, brand names, or snob/idol-appeal.

mbuc · Aug 27, 2014

Walter Broes said:
Picky bunch we are.

We're the customers, we have the right to be. Although the producer may despair of it.

bluesypicky · Aug 27, 2014

Walter Broes said:
Funny when you think of it. The T-500's came with US custom shop Duncans, and folks like myself were saying "but they don't LOOK like Franz pickups!!", the Korean pickups are near perfect physical Franz repros, and I'm all "but they're cheaply made in Korea, and they don't sound exactly like the old ones I have!!". Picky bunch we are.

At the risk of sounding defeatist, I will say this based on personal observations over the course of my lifetime:

Every attempt I have witnessed so far, consisting in reproducing a vintage pickup sound has failed.
Sure you can make repros that will look exactly like the original piece, and will even sound decent, but they will never sound "like" the old one. (Whether it's a Franz, an HB1 or any other brand that shall remain nameless)
Not sure why either as one would think technology allows us to reproduce the same components after analysis, but it's just a fact I observed.

Guess there's a reason why vintage instruments (or some at least) never lose their value.....

And I hadn't seen Walter's post 53 which pretty much says the same thing, but going more in depth, as everyone knows how shallow I am.

Walter Broes · Aug 27, 2014

I do agree with that Pascal. When recording, for myself or other people, I always bring as many guitars as I physically can, and generally, the vintage guitars win, and have more character on tape (or hard disk, these days, sigh...). And that's not some snobby manufactured opinion, because I wish it wasn't so, it would make life simpler, and cheaper if it wasn't!!!

But some guys do get awful close. I have a Jerry Jones guitar that really nails that 50'/60's Danelectro Baritone/six string bass thing, and yes, I've even had it side by side with the real thing. It records like nobody's business, and I keep getting complimented on how it sounds every time I use it - it's pretty much guaranteed that if I take it to a session, it's going to get used.

bluesypicky · Aug 27, 2014

Walter Broes said:
I do agree with that Pascal. When recording, for myself or other people, I always bring as many guitars as I physically can, and generally, the vintage guitars win, and have more character on tape

Recording is undeniably the ultimate test for tone, and I too have experienced what you describe above Walter.
There is A LOT involved in a "tone", including little details that the human ear cannot always perceive, but that the mic and recorder can.

mbuc · Aug 27, 2014

I'm not challenging any of your opinions / observations / lifetime experiences but I think on vintage guitars it is also (maybe even mostly) the aged wood that makes the difference in tone, especially if the guitar has been played and the wood has resonated regularly all those years.

Walter Broes · Aug 27, 2014

True Markus, it's probably the sum of the parts. It's hard to say exactly what part of a guitar is responsible most for what it sounds like.

That said, I have this thing :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v..._10202608299196263_84153505_n_zps83307e5e.jpg

And it's brand spanking new - so new, it still smells of paint. (parts-o-caster I finished myself) But the pickups are late 60's at the very latest, I don't know, they were made between the late 50's and the late 60's. And it sounds ridiculously great, it's almost weird. Drummer and bassplayer in my band both commented on it, unprovoked, as in "yeah man, that white one....!!!!"

GuildFS4612CE · Aug 27, 2014

Do you think that the fact that the actual 50 year old Pups have actual 50 year old magnets, coils, wires and whatever the heck else they consist of might have something to do with it?

Sort of like the popularity in the US for a while for 'authentic' paint colors from colonial times on restored old houses...until someone figured out that those 'authentic' colors being analyzed and viewed and reproduced currently were NOT that color when first applied several hundred years ago...time marches on.

The AP Aristocrat is here

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