M20 Advice Needed

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I'd appreciate any advice you have regarding the M-20. I am interested in purchasing one but have come across a lot of conflicting reports; ideally, I'd like an American made Guild (I am overseas where it is prohibitively expensive to buy one but have an in to get one shipped cheaply to my current locale -- the bad news is that I will not be able to play it before buying it = scary). It looks like all new Guild guitars, or at least the current M20 equivalent, the M120, is built in China so that one is out.

I'm looking at getting a new-ish Guild M20 built in Westerly before the Fender-initiated move (1990s or 2000). I've read some that say these guitars are great, others that say that for some reason for these particular years the guitars sounded more ukulele-like and lacked the depth of tone found in earlier and later models. I don't expect anyone to have a clear answer to this, as I suppose it depends upon the individual guitar in question. However, does someone know how much these Westerly guitars retailed for new and how much they should go for now?

Thanks in advance for your answers and any other unsolicited advice you might have for me.
 
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Guilds are probably more consistent in build quality and sound than many other factory-made guitars. Nevertheless, I suspect that you will find that the M-20, like any other model from any other maker, is going to have a range of characteristics that result in a corresponding range of user responses. There are bound to be both wonderful and less-than-wonderful examples--and players whose opinions fall on both sides of the great/crap divide about almost any given guitar. My usual advice is to play as many as you can and buy the one that speaks to you, but you're not in a position to do that. (I'm curious about your reason for wanting an American-built Guild only, but my knowing that would not solve your problem.)

On more factual matters: The M-20 was Guild's least expensive guitar and built in fairly large numbers. Years ago I talked to a Chicago-area dealer who sold dozens and dozens of them in the 1960s as part of student-guitar bundles. I don't know the exact price point, but I suspect that it was on the order of $125-150 in the mid-60s. (My '65 D-40 listed for $250 back then.) Current selling price for an older M-20 is strongly affected by the guitar's (perhaps mistaken) association Nick Drake. That fetishism was why I eventually sold off my 1965 M-20. It was a nice enough guitar (though not a patch on my old Martin 0-18), but it wasn't getting played, and the market put what I thought to be a silly premium on it, so off it went to a player for whom it was a holy grail. (I've kept my '59 M-30--it's not as sweet as a Martin 000-17 but just too funky and odd to let go of yet.)
 

GardMan

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There just happen to be a couple catalog price lists on eBay right now from the '70s, with readable pics. In Apr 1970, the M-20 list prices (high gloss) was $155 (the M-20 3/4 $134.50). By Oct '70, $165. By '72 $185. As Russell mentioned, the Nick Drake connection drives the price on this model, and you will typically see Hoboken or Westerly M-20s listed/selling for >$1000 on eBay, and even more in shops on GBase. Good luck!
 

BJ_Toscano

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I haven't played a Westerly M-20, but I own a 1959 M-20 and it's a fabulous sounding guitar. Very lively and complex tone. I believe this is due to the light construction and aging of the guitar.

Check out the back braces of this newer Westerly M-20: http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/eacAAMXQC-tTFhKt/$_57.JPG

Compared to this Hoboken model: http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/GNsAAOxy63FS6oV~/$_57.JPG

I think the lighter bracing is a major plus, especially with such a small guitar.

If I were you, I would seek out a 50's or 60's model, rather than going with a later Westerly model (1990's or 2000's). There seems to be plenty of them available and if you're patient I think you'll find one in good shape at a reasonable price (~$1200).
 

BJ_Toscano

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Of course, you might have to drop some $ into repairs with an older model, while a Westerly model is less likely to need work.
 

killdeer43

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I detect a first post so, WELCOME TO LTG!
I'm sure you'll enjoy any number of opinions/answers, etc., right here, so sit back and enjoy.

Best of luck in your search for the M20 that sings to you and you alone! :tranquillity:

Joe
 

ladytexan

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Welcome to LTG, danneskjold! Glad to have you on-board.

There's lots of love for M20 here. A good place to search is the ebay/craigslist threads here on the forum. LTGers (an LTG member) who find various models will post there. Here is a recent post for a Westerly M20. The posting has expired, so I don't know if it is still available.

Best of luck in your search!
 

jgmaute

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I was able to buy a 1964 M-20 thanks to someone on LTG who went and played it for me before I bought it. I got it from the original owner who hadn't played it in decades. It was a great sounding guitar and only needed a neck "heat reset" with was about a $125. (Much better than a complete reset.) Unfortunately, it has a 1 5/8" width nut and I just couldn't find a comfortable way to play it. I really tried, but my left arm kept getting sore. So, I told it to another LTG member who lives in New Zealand. Last I heard it was very happy at its new home. As mentioned before, they are small (3/4 size) student guitars. At the time I had mine it was impossible to find hardshell cases to fit, that has changed fortunately.

Good luck in your search, I'd suggest you find a guitar locally with a narrow neck to play and make sure that won't be a problem for you. Keep us posted and let us know if you find one somewhere here in the states, there may be a local LTG member who will be willing to check it out for you.

Oh, welcome to LTG! Joan

Here are pictures of a couple of friends playing mine (they both liked it), David Jacobs-Strain


Janis Ian
 
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jgmaute

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Just found this active listing on ebay for a 2000 Westerly. (I think it's the same one referred to above.) The nut width is listed as 1 11/16. It's very possible they changed the nut width when they changed the pick guard, etc. The one I had was 36 years older than this one. 2000 Westerly Guild
 
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Just a niggling niggle: The M-20 is not a 3/4 size instrument but the same size as the F-20--what was sometimes called "concert" size, in this case just slightly larger than a Martin 0, with a 24.5" scale (in the mid-60s, anyway).
 

SFIV1967

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Just found this active listing on ebay for a 2000 Westerly. (I think it's the same one referred to above.) The nut width is listed as 1 11/16. It's very possible they changed the nut width when they changed the pick guard, etc. The one I had was 36 years older than this one. 2000 Westerly Guild
Nice condition! Year 2000 is correct (according to Hans). Looks almost new! The 2001 price list showed as MSRP $1099.99

And to the OP: Welcome to LTG!
To give you some better dates, FMIC bought Guild in 1995 and the Westerly/RI factory was closed 6 years later in late 2001 after which production was moved to Corona/CA, a few years later in 2004 to Tacoma/Washington and in 2008 to New Hartford. Many of the famous Guild guitars are still made in USA in New Hartford/Connecticut! Only 3 product lines come from abroad: The GAD line (MIC), the Arcos line (MIM) and the Newark St. line (MIK). Everything else you see on the Guild Guitars webpage is made in USA.
Ralf
 
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GardMan

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Just a niggling niggle: The M-20 is not a 3/4 size instrument but the same size as the F-20--what was sometimes called "concert" size, in this case just slightly larger than a Martin 0, with a 24.5" scale (in the mid-60s, anyway).
But, the '70 price list does include a 3/4 M-20 price, in addition to the price for the M-20 (both in satin and high gloss). I think Hans has also talked about the M-20 3/4 in the past (can't find the threads now)?
 

phinegan

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I had a late-90's M-20 - don't know where it was made - but it was probably the worst guitar purchase I ever made.

It was a beautiful little guitar, well made, very attractive looking. But...

The braces would have put an old Martin D-28 to shame. Gigantic, completely wrong for a small-bodied guitar.
The tone was indescribably dead. No life, no zing, no nuthin'. Just plain a lousy sounding guitar.
I briefly owned a early 60's M-20...that guitar really sang. The 90's version had no business sharing the same model number.

Just my experience, and of course, YMMV.

Regards -

Dan

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Wow -- first of all, thanks everyone for such insightful information regarding this guitar, and in a single day no less. I can't say my decision has been made easier but I do feel a lot better informed. In fact, I've been looking at the Westerly that was posted on this forum on Ebay.

In answer to an earlier question regarding why American, I guess I'm a little stuck on the idea that American made guitars are made by craftsmen who are paid a living wage (which I hope is the case for Chinese made guitars but I'm not certain); also I'm making an assumption that they would retain value better (not that I intend on selling); and I may be a little stuck on experiences with my electric guitars.

I haven't owned an acoustic guitar in years; in fact, not since my first guitar (a fender avalon). I recently realized that I spend more time playing my ukulele than my Telecaster or SG because I don't have to switch on a tube amp first-- hence my strong desire to obtain a guitar that I can pick up and play daily.

I still don't know if I will settle on the M20 or another model but the dedication, responsiveness and knowledge of those on this forum have pushed me strongly in favor of getting a Guild.

Thanks again all for your input.
 
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Niggle, part deux: The 3/4 M-20 appears in 1969, a decade later than the standard M-20 (which is a no-frills, all-mahogany F-20), and in Hans' book is designated "M-20 3/4," with entirely different dimensions (notably scale length) from its standard sibling. So identifying the M-20 (with no fraction) as a three-quarters instrument introduces confusion rather than clarity.

I'm not surprised to hear of a 90's version of this model being less than wonderful--there's a period of Guild production that features overbuilt instruments with very heavy finishes. They do not sound like what was coming out of the factory in the 1960s. To me they sound like Guilds being played under water.
 

ladytexan

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Gosh, I don't know what's going on with this Westerly M20, but it's been recently posted on Reverb.

danneskjold, please keep us posted if you find one. Sure hope you do.... :happy:

P.S. You might want to get Hans Moust's book, The Guild Guitar Book. LTGers refer to this as the Bible. (Good source for purchase is Amazon.) Hans is a member of LTG and often posts - and helps us all understand our Guild guitars better. We LUV Hans!
 
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Default

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There just happen to be a couple catalog price lists on eBay right now from the '70s, with readable pics. In Apr 1970, the M-20 list prices (high gloss) was $155 (the M-20 3/4 $134.50). By Oct '70, $165. By '72 $185. As Russell mentioned, the Nick Drake connection drives the price on this model, and you will typically see Hoboken or Westerly M-20s listed/selling for >$1000 on eBay, and even more in shops on GBase. Good luck!

I still don't get who Nick Drake is and why it drives the price of the cheapest possible Guilds through the roof. It's not like he was Neil Young or anything. The store that I first took lessons at had 3 or 4 of these as beaters for those kids who could never remember their guitars. When I brought in my new D-25, Bill Watson hit the first chord and got this dreamy expression on his face.


<edit> I see he was an influence on some guy from the group Japan(shrug) the one guy from The Cure who didn't leave the band and Peter Buck, from REM. Not to be snarky(well, maybe just a little), but why does this unknown to 95% of the guitarists in the world command more respect than, say, Gordon Lightfoot or John Denver? (Exclude the F-612. That's a white whale guitar.)
Somebody, 'splain this to me?
 
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SFIV1967

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@Steve: It seems to be almost more a thing in Europe (or the U.K.) than in the US. He died already in 1974, 26 years young...Only the good die young...
From Wikipedia:
"He failed to find a wide audience during his lifetime but his work has gradually achieved wider notice and recognition...Drake's reluctance to perform live, or be interviewed, contributed to his lack of commercial success. There is no known footage of the adult Drake; he was only ever captured in still photographs and in home footage from his childhood."

"By the mid-1980s Drake was being cited as an influence by musicians such as R.E.M's Peter Buck and Robert Smith of The Cure. Smith credited the origin of his band's name to a lyric from Drake's song "Time Has Told Me" ("a troubled cure for a troubled mind"). Drake gained further exposure in 1985 with the release of The Dream Acadamy's hit single "Life in a Northern Town", which included an on-sleeve dedication to Drake. In 1986 the first biography of Drake was published, in Danish—it was eventually translated, updated with new interviews, and published in English in February 2012. His reputation continued to grow, and by the end of the 1980s, his name was appearing regularly in newspapers and music magazines in the United Kingdom; he had to many come to represent a "doomed romantic hero", and an "enigma wrapped inside a mystery". The first step in translating that reputation into record sales came with the release of the compilation album Way to Blue: An Introduction to Nick Drake in May 1994. Although the album never charted in the UK, it sold consistently over the next few years, gaining a gold disc certification in September 1999 for sales of 100,000 copies in the UK."

I think his music was quite good, just one example here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2jxjv0HkwM

That's the full album where he appeared with the M-20 on the cover: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr3-ScLFG4w
But the story goes that he never played it but only was holding it for the picture...It wasn't even his own guitar in the picture. Who knows...I can't remember (and I am to lazy to search right now) if Hans ever commented on it.

Nick%2BDrake-bryter%2Blayter%5B1%5D.jpg


This is also a good collection of his songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kZMVG6N7DE

Ralf
 
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