Nut Material

This is a precursor to another question I have, but as a start point what is all the fuss about nut material ?

Surely the nut affects the tone only of the open strings which you play less than 20% of the time.

Is it to try to get the sound as close to a fretted sound and volume as possible?

I say this because if I do a walkdown on the a string for instance from the c, l get a more even sound if I do the same thing if I capo the second fret.

Which leads me to my main question. Why is the use of a zero fret not more commonplace?

It seems to me, especially on lower end guitars, that this would eliminate a lot of set up of the nut.

Different gauge strings could be used in the same v slot without a height difference from the fretboard.

The tone to fretted and unfretted notes would be the same.

David

My first response was Google because that is easier to type than Wikipedia. I note the article here which claims zero frets are a cost saving feature associated with low end instruments. Now whether that it true, or not, the belief is popular enough that no one has edited the page to express a different opinion. So the absence of a zero fret may just be a perception problem. No one wants to put one on a $1000 guitar for fear that the buying public will think it is a $500 guitar. The article also calls into question your supposition that "Is it to try to get the sound as close to a fretted sound and volume as possible?" and cites experts who claim they can hear the difference in nut material.

All this is to say that people who agree with you about the purpose of the nut and the lack of the nut's influence on sonic qualities are going to agree with you about a zero fret. Everyone else will be too busy arguing with your assumptions to comment on a zero fret.

If this is a preliminary to asking a question about nut material, while I am tempted to say Don't Do It, a more helpful suggestion would be to phrase the discussion in terms of people's experience and not their opinions and understand that it is a very subjective issue, kind of like whether a striated ebony bridge sounds different from a solid ebony bridge or whether anyone can actually tell, by sound alone, whether it is Brazilian or East Indian Rosewood.

I'm still shaking my head about the open string/20% statement. I play open strings a lot more than that.

charliea said:

I'm still shaking my head about the open string/20% statement. I play open strings a lot more than that.

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That got by me. One of the things I am finding out on bass is that there is a tonal difference between an open string and the fretted equivalent and in certain lines the open string sticks out like a sore thumb. Indeed one of the exercises my teacher has given me is to play something using open strings as much as possible, using them as little as possible and then playing using whatever sounds bests or makes for the smoothest sound and transition.

That said, given the number of folks who play in open tunings 20% is certainly a number open to discussion.

If we're talking acoustic, I tend to spend a lot of time in first position leaving lots of opportunity for open strings. Moving up the neck you can also use repeat or complimentary notes with an open string. When you go electric open strings are quite hard to control. They tend to jump in when you don't want them and you have to dampen them with your palm, or in the case of 1st and 6th, left hand thumb or right hand pinky. I would guess the 20% number fits close to what I do. My impression of Jazzers is that they avoid them like the plague. Just my $.02.

I really just put that out there to try and poll some opinion. I always question why things are done, and its not really a precursor to what type of nut material I should use.
At soIme point the bigger plan is that I want to build a guitar when time allows, and of course it would not make sense to fly in the face of what are obviously tried and tested methods. Just trying to gather a little more background.
And as far as my 20% is concerned its just a finger in the air based on my playing, which is quite often away from the neck, and if anyone is ever foolish enough to ask me to sing, I'll usually put a capo on the second fret.

I thought the purpose of the zero fret is intonation.

Harpymorgan said:

Just trying to gather a little more background.
And as far as my 20% is concerned its just a finger in the air based on my playing, which is quite often away from the neck, and if anyone is ever foolish enough to ask me to sing, I'll usually put a capo on the second fret.

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I just made my remark to get the conversation going. I'm a 12-string kinda guy, though, and I use a bunch of three-finger chords up and down the neck, with my thumb fumbling around the bass strings. I'm too lazy to barre a bunch. Tell you the truth, I'm not sure I know what to call half the chords I make. They seem to work (sometimes), though.

Harpymorgan said:

I really just put that out there to try and poll some opinion. I always question why things are done, and its not really a precursor to what type of nut material I should use.
At soIme point the bigger plan is that I want to build a guitar when time allows, and of course it would not make sense to fly in the face of what are obviously tried and tested methods. Just trying to gather a little more background.
And as far as my 20% is concerned its just a finger in the air based on my playing, which is quite often away from the neck, and if anyone is ever foolish enough to ask me to sing, I'll usually put a capo on the second fret.

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That brings up another thought. I can't remember the last time I used my capo. I've got an old cheapo strap on but if I'm in C, A, G, E, D I'm in pretty safe ground. I've strapped it on a couple times but it felt uncomfortable so it came right off. Of course my voice is an insult to music anyway but that doesn't stop me. Sing it loud, sing it proud, cover your ears if you must. Lots of folks feel like they have to sing a song in the original key. I'm not one of them. OK this should be a different thread or two or three. :biggrin:

The newer style spring gripmcapos are much better than the ones we used to have, and I bought a mate a good one with a tuner built in. Really good idea as I always keep my capo clamped on the headstock. Of course thats the Taylor and it had 10 years of good love before I got it , I might be a bit more precious when I eventually get an F50r

GuildFS4612CE said:

I thought the purpose of the zero fret is intonation.

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That what I have been thinking, it makes an awful lot of sense, I just cant see why its not adopted more often.

Harpymorgan said:

That what I have been thinking, it makes an awful lot of sense, I just cant see why its not adopted more often.

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The answers, previously alluded to, are at least two. First, there is a perception on the part of some potential buyers and the manufacturers who consider those folks to be in a target market, that a zero fret signifies a lower quality instrument. The perception is that the company was too cheap or unskilled to make and use a real, well crafted and adjusted nut. Second, and much more objective, the presence of a zero effect effects the action and the possible adjustments that can be made to the action. Zero frets wear faster and don't work well for styles and players with a lot of string bending.

I suspect the same reasons that we had VHS instead of BetaMax tapes (if you're old enough) or any other example where the superior technology loses in the marketplace probably apply to the universal adoption of a zero fret. I'll note that Steinberger instruments have no nut, yet they remain a niche offering. I also note that I have met a lot of guitar players who lack a basic understanding of tuning and intonation and thus the ability to recognize a problem, let alone the willingness to adopt a solution, are both not there.

"But it was in tune when I left the store!"

The only zero frets I can recall seeing were on an expensive Martin signature model honoring some British player (Martin Carthy??) and on Voyage-air guitars where they are needed because of the foldable neck build. In regard to the Voyage-air, I really can't tell any difference between it and good quality similar guitars in its price range. I don't bend strings, intentionally at least (HAH) and don't play electric so I can't speak to that. I do use a capo a lot though, including a partial.

Harmony H-173 bought in 1960 (retired), Alvarez AC60S 2008, Eastman AC320ce 2009 "Hybrid", Guild D25M 1974 (all mahogany, archback), Martin Grand J35E 2009, Martin D12-20 1970, Martin OM-21 2009, Martin 00-15M Custom (full body gloss, wide neck) 2011, Martin 00-15M Custom (12 fret, wide neck, solid peghead) 2012, Voyage-air VAOM-06 2010
"One chord is plenty, two and you're pushing it, three is jazz"
Lou Reed

Harpymorgan said:

...Surely the nut affects the tone only of the open strings...

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That is a common assumption. But I do not believe it to be the case.

"Tone" is defined by the various elements that comprise the construction of the guitar, considered as a whole. The wood choices are the primary drivers of "tone", all things being considered.

The strings are suspended at (roughly) 170 pounds of tension (for a six string) between the nut and saddle. Strummed or plucked, the strings will vibrate and transfer their energy primarily through the bridge system (saddle, bridge pins, bridge and bridgeplate) across the top of the guitar soundboard (the guitar's finish assisting to "telegraph" that energy). The soundhole acts as an air valve (intake/outlet) as the top and back (to a lesser degree) "pump" as a result of the "lever" action of the bridge system activated by the strings. The "breathing"

But do not forget the neckblock, neck, fingerboard, and nut. The other end of the string, the same string that is (near magically) responsible for initiating all that sound, has a second termination point. And that is the nut, not the fret (technically, the string terminates at the machine head / tuner on the headstock. But the amount of measurable string energy past the nut is negligible). When you fret a string by depressing it with your finger (or a capo) to make contact with the metal fret, the energy of the vibrating string under 170 pounds of tension does not terminate under your finger. Some energy is transferred through the fret, through the fretboard, down the neck and onto the top (giving credence to the selection of fret material, fingerboard wood, neck wood and construction, etc.). But the remaining energy travels on to the nut where the choice of nut material most assuredly, measurably affects the "tone"...

...To the same audible degree that a strummed or plucked "open" string affects it? Perhaps not, though some argue differently. But there *is* an affect to be considered. And that is what all the fuss is about.

Thanks everyone for your input. As a coincidence found this today. Anyone tried themhttp://www.zeroglide.com/?