Experience with the GAD jumbos? F-150/F-150R

Mr. Natural

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I'm ready to upgrade from my EJ200 and have been lusting after a classic F-50 for a while now. Last week I went to Rudy's and played a new F-50 that blew me away. They're a bit out of my budget right now, so I'm wondering if the GAD version could hold me over until my ship comes in. The D-125M was awfully impressive and seem like a great value, I'm wondering if the F-150s are similarly well made. Anybody have first-hand experience with one, either in spruce or (ideally) rosewood?
 

twocorgis

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*Shameless self-bump thread resurrection*

Not a fan of any of the GADs at all, but I might not be the right person to ask. But then again, when you can get a superb F50 Standard from New Hartford for near $1K if you're patient, I see no reason to buy a GAD.
 

txbumper57

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I tried the GAD F150 side by side with the New Hartford F50R and there was no comparison. The F50R blew it out of the water. The GAD sounded thin in comparison and was definitely not on the same or even close to quality level. Also I believe the GAD Version had a 16" lower Bout for awhile as opposed to the 17" lower bout on the F50R. Store price was around $1300-$1400 on the GAD. You can find a Nice New Hartford F50R or F50 Maple for that price if you are looking. The Extra cash I spent on my F50R was definitely worth it to me. The hours of Enjoyment and the tone difference alone made it all worth while. In my experience, If you want something and try to "Get By" with a less expensive example you are still going to try and wind up with what you wanted to begin with. Then you have spent more money by far than you originally planned to. Not to mention the resale on the GAD's is no where near what they were selling for new.

My New Hartford F50R is now 3 years old. It sounded great when I bought it new but now after 3 years it still getting better if that is possible. I am really happy with the way the New Hartford Acoustics have seasoned in tone and play ability over the time I have owned them. They are a complete joy and bring a smile to my face every time I play them.


I am going to send you a PM with a link to a nice looking New Hartford F50R for sale.

TX
 
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cutrofiano

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...The GAD sounded thin in comparison and was definitely not on the same or even close to quality level.
I do not want to question what you say in principle, but I wonder how much of what you report is based on objective facts (-> inferior quality concerning materials / craftsmanship) and how much on cognitive dissonance (-> the GAD cannot sound as good being built in China...).
Plus: If one of two guitars that are being directly compared has a set of strings older than two weeks and the other one new ones, the test is not fair any more.
A simple fact that but commonly ignored when people compare guitars - which is true also for the following:
I had the opportunity to compare my F-150R CE with a number of guitars and there was not even one that made me think:
"Wow, now this one here sounds remarkable better."
On the contrary:
After any of these comparisons, including the Martin D-35 of my son's guitar teacher, that was picked in it's time as the best from a number of D-35s to chose from, I was very happy with my chinese Guild.
I do admit: I have never had a F50 in my hands though.

Let me finish with this:
If there were as many people around that can trully tell a Chardonnay from a Pinot Blanc as there are people that pretend they can, there would be less Chardonnay around :)
(This is no statement against Chardonnay that can beyond all doubts be a very fine wine.)

Cheers,
Moritz
 
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davismanLV

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I'll ignore all the subjective stuff and focus on the resale value. Even if you pay a bit more for the USA made guitar, it's going to hold its value MUCH better than the Chinese built one. And that is significant. Every guitar I've bought has at least maintained its value and in a couple of cases increased in value EXCEPT for the one Chinese built guitar I bought 21 years ago, which is worth almost nothing. There's nothing wrong with most Chinese built guitars, and if they sound okay to you then you're good. But if you buy new, you're gonna lose money. It's just a fact.
 

txbumper57

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I do not want to question what you say in principle, but I wonder how much of what you report is based on objective facts (-> inferior quality concerning materials / craftsmanship) and how much on cognitive dissonance (-> the GAD cannot sound as good being built in China...).
Plus: If one of two guitars that are being directly compared has a set of strings older than two weeks and the other one new ones, the test is not fair any more.
A simple fact that but commonly ignored when people compare guitars - which is true also for the following:
I had the opportunity to compare my F-150R CE with a number of guitars and there was not even one that made me think:
"Wow, now this one here sounds remarkable better."
On the contrary:
After any of these comparisons, including the Martin D-35 of my son's guitar teacher, that was picked in it's time as the best from a number of D-35s to chose from, I was very happy with my chinese Guild.
I do admit: I have never had a F50 in my hands though.

Let me finish with this:
If there were as many people around that can trully tell a Chardonnay from a Pinot Blanc as there are people that pretend they can, there would be less Chardonnay around :)
(This is no statement against Chardonnay that can beyond all doubts be a very fine wine.)

Cheers,
Moritz

Just to clarify things for you cutrofiano so you don't make any assumptions of my opinion on the difference of the two guitars and why I stated what I did about the comparison of the F50R and the F150R.

When I tested both guitars I was at my Local Guild Dealer (Mom and Pop Shop) who also sells everything from $150 entry level Acoustics to High End Guitars retailing for up to and beyond $5,000-$10,000 such as Collings, Santa Cruz, High end Martins and Taylors etc..... Both guitars were fresh on the wall from shipment with New Daddario EXP17 strings and proper setups as My Luthier never lets a guitar hang on the wall that hasn't been properly set up by himself or his lead guitar tech because he believes if someone is trying a guitar they should get the best representation of it before deciding to purchase it or not. Both guitars were tuned to standard 440 tuning and were tested in the same acoustic room side by side with no outside interference whatsoever.

Now with all of that being said I feel this was about as even of a playing field as there ever would be to compare the two Guitars. After playing both guitars for a considerable amount of time The F150R sounded Choked off and Thin when compared to the F50R. The F150R had around 1/2 to 3/4's of the volume that the F50R had. The F150R also had a bit of a muddy quality to the tone when you began to push the guitar. The F50R sounded full and Blooming when strummed with more overtones, even when pushed hard. When Fingerpicked The F50R was extremely Warm and resonate and it also had far better note separation and attack when flatpicked than the F150R. The differences in tone and play ability were glaringly obvious between the two guitars and it couldn't be chalked up to strings or any other excuse. This was not only evident to myself but also the shop owner and three other musicians that were present when the guitars were being played. In the words of the shop owner,"You get what you pay for." As far as appearance the quality of material the F150R's fretboard inlays were made of was not that great, kind of looked like plastic instead of mother of pearl which is understandable for the price point. The asking price on the F150R was $1300 and the F50r was $3300.

I was able to find my F50R Brand New with the DTAR pickup and full factory warranty for $2500. The F150R was selling New for right at $1300. Today the F50R's from New Hartford with the DTAR pickup in Excellent shape are still selling used for around $2500 and some as high as $2800 on Reverb and other sites. The F150R's in excellent shape are selling used for between $500-$650 here locally in the States. I don't think the used prices of both guitars has anything to do with one being made in China or the USA. I think it has to do with the guitars being what they are and the inherent Quality of the two.

I'm not saying the F150R was a bad guitar by any means. I am glad you like yours and I truly think It was a Great guitar for the price point but no where near the New Hartford made F50R in comparison. Granted this is just my opinion so take it for what it is worth.

On a finishing note, as far as your wine analogy I'm not a wine drinker. Now I can tell the difference between a nice glass of 15 year old Barrel Proof Blended Kentucky straight bourbon and your every day liquor store shelf stock.:playful: This is no statement against shelf stock Bourbon but I'll take Wild Turkey Rare Breed any day of the week and twice on Sundays.:hypnotysed:

Cheers!
TX
 

cutrofiano

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Thanks txbumper57.
I like the description of the testing environment - wow!
I'm glad I provided the impetus for this great answer :)

Edit: Maybe I should add this: I'm not being ironic.

Cheers,
Moritz
 
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txbumper57

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No problem Moritz, At the time I didn't own either the F150R or the F50R and I went into the store with an open mind as to which I would choose and why. I don't have anything against Chinese or Japanese made guitars as I own a Few 70's Takamines from Japan and a couple of Gretsch Professional series guitars as well. I really wanted to see if the price difference in the two Guilds was justified and to me it was. I can't say with the F150R because I didn't buy one but my F50r is steadily getting better the longer I have it. I didn't think it was possible for that guitar to sound any better than it did when it was new but it pleasantly keeps surprising me.

TX
 

adorshki

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Edit: Maybe I should add this: I'm not being ironic.
It can be hard to tell sometimes, a little courtesy never hurts so I'm applauding your tact.
Although I have no personal experience with GAD's, I do recall one new member's (DCannon) meticulous breakdown of the construction of his GAD F30.
He was in the enviable position of being able to compare his new MIC instrument with a vintage Hoboken F30 and as a professional musician was well qualified to critique tonal and construction differences between the two. (Which, by the way, I think TXbumper is, as well)
He mentioned fretboard not quite as finely finished as American version, and he actually replaced the tuning machines.
Overall he liked it and gave the guitar high ratings but it was the first time I ever saw somebody give such a comprehensive eval of a GAD instrument, "warts and all", with no apparent bias towards the domestic or imported origins of the guitars.
And in the end we knew where some of the "economies" had been achieved in the MIC product.
Another question occurs to me regarding bracing: We know New Hartford implemented red spruce bracing on all the guitars (and at least some in Tacoma); but I don't recall ever seeing any such detail being spec'd in the MIC instruments.

So leaving any possible preconceived expectations out of the equation, we have seen proof of quantifiable differences in quality level between the two lines.
By all accounts I can recall, GADs are a great value for the money, but there ARE definable upgrades in quality of materials available in the American instruments.
Another example: I've never heard any complaints about the MIC woods themselves, and Fender claimed they actually bought the wood and shipped it to the factory themselves, to assure it all met their QA standards.
But I strongly suspect Fender's corporate QA standards weren't as stringent as Guild's factory standards when it came to grading wood lots.
It must be remembered that all the MIC product was made, controlled, and marketed by Fender who owned Guild and all the brand intellectual property, but (as far as I've ever seen) there was no input from Guild itself except perhaps initially when the product was named "Guild Acoustic Design"
It's only supposition on my part that Fender used that acronym to indicate that certain elements of Guild intellectual property regarding construction techniques were used in these guitars, and they pretty much implied that, in the spring '04 Guild price list where I first saw the line, but there was no other connection to US-built Guilds beyond that.
 
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cutrofiano

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We know New Hartford implemented red spruce bracing on all the guitars (and at least some in Tacoma); but I don't recall ever seeing any such detail being spec'd in the MIC instruments.
Same for Stradivari and Amati violins.
There must be an alternative to North American red spruce :apple:
But the D-35 mentioned above has it (Adirondack).

Edit: O.K. - stupid comparison: Stradivari and GADs :witless:

It must be remembered that all the MIC product was made, controlled, and marketed by Fender... but there was no other connection to US-built Guilds beyond that.
What about US-builts after Cordoba Music Group has bought it?
Did this bring the old virtues back?

Greetings,
Moritz
 
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davismanLV

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Maybe you could offer details, perhaps we will be able to judge why it's worth nothing today ;-)

Moritz
Not seeking your judgement or insight. It was a very popular model of Washburn and was played by quite a few decent guitarists in its day. Still an okay guitar, but mostly plugged in. Acoustically not that great. It is what it is. Now it's a 21 year old Chinese built guitar with older electronics that's not worth very much money. That's all.
 

cutrofiano

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Not seeking your judgement or insight.
Thank you.

It was a very popular model of Washburn and was played by quite a few decent guitarists in its day. Still an okay guitar, but mostly plugged in. Acoustically not that great. It is what it is. Now it's a 21 year old Chinese built guitar with older electronics that's not worth very much money. That's all.

...Here's my Washburn in black...

GbA7ob.jpg

It's the combination of faded reputation, mediocre scills and ugly headstock :black_eyed: that makes it worth not very much today :)

-> None of it will apply to the GAD F-150R CE in 20 years.

I paid 848,- € (new, approx. 935,- $) in January.
I doubt it has lost any value since then and I doubt it ever will.
It's a guess...

I only wished it would have been "Made in the USA" instead of "Handcrafted in China".
That would be so much cooler in 20 years - as it is already today.

Moritz
 
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titanNV

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None of it will apply to the GAD F-150R CE in 20 years.

I paid 848,- € (new, approx. 935,- $) in January.
I doubt it has lost any value since then and I doubt it ever will.
It's a guess...

I only wished it would have been "Made in the USA" instead of "Handcrafted in China".
That would be so much cooler in 20 years...

Moritz


It depends - I bought mine in Sept for just under $700 new. I don't know that I could get that much back out of it now.

It's a wonderful sounding guitar for sub $1000, but if one had 3 times as much money to spend then sure, the F50 is the way to go.
 

davismanLV

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It's the combination of faded reputation, mediocre scills and ugly headstock :black_eyed: that makes it worth not very much today :)
Oh knower of ALL THINGS..... AND the fact that it was built in China. I know you don't want to admit that but it's true. And I knew you'd give your opinion, even though I said.... don't. :frustrating:.
 

adorshki

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What about US-builts after Cordoba Music Group has bought it?
Did this bring the old virtues back?
They've only brought 2 models to market so by definition there's no way to compare the 2 models originally mentioned except from previous Guild locations.
There is no Cordoba F50 (Actually F55) yet, so no comparison can be made.
I'm sure we all devoutly hope the standards will be maintained and Ren Ferguson's continued presence following on the New Hartford period is a good sign to a lot of us, but truly only time can tell.
Re Martin D-35 having red spruce bracing, my original post was about comparing an MIC Guild model to a US built Guild model, so I don't see any relevance to that Martin build detail, here.
Alternative to North American Red Spruce? Some of the GSR limited editions used Carpathian spruce...(D40 Noir comes to mind? but can't remember for sure)
IF you're asking about Guild's wood selection process compared to Fender corporate, we know that in Westerly at least, Guild purchased directly from producers and didn't rely on brokers to amass large volumes of product, and I was thinking primarily of topwood since that's where the tone is.
There've been several discussions with comments covering the reasons why Guild's AA spruce might be considered AAA by another maker, those standards are largely cosmetic and there is no set of standards.
Very recently 2 of Westerly Guild's entry level dreadnought models were noted for having particularly beautiful tops, see these 2 threads:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?189620-97-D25-on-Reverb
and post #45 in this thread:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...-got-the-Guild-bug-again-in-two-parts-)/page3
Similar comments have been made about Corona, Tacoma, and New Hartford models as well so I suspect Guild was left to buy their own wood at those locations as well.
 

txbumper57

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Some of the GSR limited editions used Carpathian spruce...(D40 Noir comes to mind? but can't remember for sure)

Just for Reference, The D40 Noir had an Englemann Spruce top, I know the GSR F40 Cocobolo and the GSR F20 Cocobolo both had Carpathian Spruce tops.:semi-twins:

TX
 
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adorshki

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Just for Reference, The D40 Noir had an Englemann Spruce top, I know the GSR F40 Cocobolo and the GSR F20 Cocobolo both had Carpathian Spruce tops.:semi-twins:

TX

I was hopin' you'd have my back. Just didn't have time to search.
Might even remember it now....:friendly_wink:
 

Walter Broes

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I like a lot of the Chinese built acoustic Guild just fine for what they are and for the price. The fretwork and setup is usually better than on a lot of guitars in the same price range. The Jumbos I've played though, I wasn't crazy about.
 
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