Selling my beloved 1970 M-85 II

It's on consignment at Lark Street music....

http://www.gbase.com/gear/guild-m-85-bass-1970-blonde

For better pictures go to: http://www.larkstreet.com Click on "Just In" and scroll down.

I haven't yet seen another one in original natural blond finish...

They don't make it real easy to find the photos, do they? It looks like a great bass at a great price.

Thanks, I'm sorry to see it go but I'm working on a trade for the 63 pbass they have! They also have my sweet Kay Jazz Special Bass.

The photos should be up on gbase soon.

That is a glorious instrument. I've always loved the few natural and blonde finish guild basses i've seen

Hagmeat!!!! Mate, You lookin'? I can see you thumpin' on this one. :anonymous:
Nice!

southernGuild said:

Hagmeat!!!! Mate, You lookin'? I can see you thumpin' on this one. :anonymous:
Nice!

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Yep, I`ve seen it and would love to have it, but my stable is full mate.
It will surely make someone happy.

Just Curious, not Critical: Why unload a unique bass to buy an old Fender? Is there really such a difference between a 63 and a 93 or 03 or 13 P-bass? Outside of karma and mojo, that is. (My first bass was a 59 P-bass. I don't miss it one bit.)

Happy Face said:

Is there really such a difference between a 63 and a 93 or 03 or 13 P-bass? Outside of karma and mojo, that is.

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Excellent question...In my opinion: Yes. Even Bill Nash says there's no substitute for an old fender. And substituting old fenders is his business! He would know better than me.

That's not to say that there are not some great sounding and playing modern P-Basses. And I have played some pre-CBS ones that were good but... eh. But the pre-CBS basses that I've played that are great are unmatched in my opinion by any P-Basses I've played that were made post 1966. And this one is a great one.

But will I regret letting go of the M-85? Knowing me, probably! Hopefully the musical ends will justify the means.

Fender made an American 62 reissue of that bass last year, and this year made a 63 reissue. The 62 has gotten raving reviews, 5 stars across the board. something about the pup was (is) apparently just outstanding. The 63 RI is likely similar. Fender claims the neck changed a little that year, and that is the difference in the reissues. I have heard that 62-67 (some 68s) are basically that same "Jamerson" P-bass and even back then there were several different neck shapes, but basically, they were pretty slim. not sure if they used that same pup on the 63 RI as the 62 RI, I do know the 62 RI pup was available as a standalone part. Both of those basses are less than 2K new. They are both American made ("American Vintage").

But the vintage market has deemed the old ones worth anywhere from 3-5 times that. And it seems like the people that buy them do not necassarily baby them. A sunburst 4 string Fender P-Bass from 62-68, with a rosewood fretboard, seems to be a crown jewel among vintage Fender basses, and really among all basses. Catherine has a 66 and it is just this super warm and punchy tone. Those old woods are old growth trees and on top of that are aged now 50 years. todays woods are farmed much younger and have to be less dense, and obviously that much younger. Also the pups from back then are just super hot and punchy. I guess the new ones sound pretty nice too but something about the old ones seems to keep them in a class of their own. similar I suppose, to the original Bisonic. The old Fender Mustang basses have similar vintage qualities that the new reissues just fall short of as well. The price difference in that case though, is much closer. Those vintage Mustangs are a smokin deal for vintage short scale! As is the Musicmaster, if you want to change the pup (to a Novak!)...which in the end might still cost less than the Mustang.

Brooklynbass, though, is in an interesting spot. Tough to compare the M-85 to the P-bass. A shame u must sacrifice one for the other, but the reasons are obvious. My first thought is that to be honest, that P-Bass could sell pretty fast. You might get more $ for your Starfire, and get it a lot faster. A Starfire w/ Bisonics might be easier to find down the road than another M-85 w/ Bisonics. Another option is to just put the M-85 back to how you got it, and see how much you can get for the Bisonic on its own. If you can get a small fortune out of that, and sell the Kay, maybe you can somehow keep both the M-85 and the Starfire (and the P-bass...) or at least be well on your way. If you must sell the M-85 no matter what, u still might do better by taking out the Bisonic to sell on its own...then u can lower the price of the M-85, and it will be as it left the factory...also if you hang onto the M-85 you can always stick a Novak pup in the bridge later too. Not a Bisonic but pretty close and if it helps that much now, u should consider it. The Novak would look and sound so similar later...If you got the P-Bass now it might be worth doing all that. Its a bridge pup anyway, which is probably what Guild was thinking when they stuck the humbucker in there. Just some ideas as I know the P-Bass is a popular one, and you seem serious about trying to land it. good luck! but I hope u can keep the Guilds! and there are other "Jamersons" out there too! definately. cheers

mavuser said:

. You might get more $ for your Starfire, and get it a lot faster. A Starfire w/ Bisonics might be easier to find down the road than another M-85 w/ Bisonics.

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Like all instruments, each one is different and my Starfire is my all time favorite bass I've ever played. I've never played a 60's starfire that sounded anything but great, but this one is super special to me...Won't ever be selling it!

My M-85 is also an AMAZING instrument but it covers a lot of the same sonic territory and I've never quite bonded with it the same way, partly perhaps because it's in such nice shape compared to my beat to hell Starfire that I never feel as comfortable taking it on gigs...I was lucky to find it a long time ago as well as the Kay and for a few years now I've been on the lookout for the right P-Bass to negotiate a trade for those 2 instruments. If anyone is in the NYC area I encourage you to go to Lark Street, not just to check out those basses; the entire store is amazing and one of the most reputable vintage dealers in the country.

BB-pm sent, I know of another vintage/Jamerson P-Bass for sale.

Reply sent...

Thanks. That is interesting.

You're welcome, if you're talking to me.

Also one detail I left out is that when Catherine got her 66 P-Bass, she had been playing upright her whole life and when she found the P-Bass, had "finally found something that sounded like an upright" And that was her first bass guitar, probably right around age 27? or so, while with the Cardinals.

Also Billy Talbot of Neil Young's band Crazy Horse plays 50's P-Basses exclusively. If you want to hear how one sounds 60 years later, pick up one of the new albums "Americana" or "Psycadelic Pill."

I still think my favorite has to be the one that belongs to Happy Face, a JS bass with Bisonics/Darkstars. That is what I call a weapon of mass destruction. Have seen pictures of the old Jetstar bass with one Bisonic, and the awesome gumby headstock. those have to be pretty rare and would be a grand slam to find one. I'd take that over a P-bass any day though. For me, I just can't play longscale bass.

I play upright about 80-90% of the time. To me, even the most old school, beat up, '59 P-Bass with dead flats doesn't even get in the ballpark of what an upright actually sounds like. Unless you're rolling all the tone off and using a mute. A Starfire, Kay 162, Harmony H-22, EB-2, Hofner, etc... yes, assuming you're talking about an amplified upright....but still only kind of. Actually, come to think of it, my '69 Danelectro is a dead ringer for 70s D.I.-ed upright a la Fred Hopkins.

yeah i'm not sure what Cat meant by that. I think it was just the first bass guitar she felt comfortable playing aside from an upright, and fell in love with it fast. I guess it sounds a little like an upright, but more than anything I have heard that bass at huge rock shows so that's not really the first thing that comes to mind for me. At smaller clubs like Rockwood it has a more woody folky tone, but still that hot and fat Fender tone at the same time.

This may sound crazy but to me my 1972 JS1 bass with neck humbucker and the "hard" switch activated, sounds kinda like an upright, with the flats and rosewood saddles. But I think that could have a lot to do with my amp. Seems I can make almost any bass sound very close to that same tone (not a Bisonic though), one way or another, especially various humbuckers...when using that amp (Orange Terror Bass 500 combo). It depends how I play but if I dial in the JS1 just right, it just has the coolest sound. Not an upright surrogate, but the tone can wander into that neighborhood. at least mine can, with my amp. in my opinion.

Bklyn bass I am with u on the PM, do what u gotta do! gonna make someone very happy with the Guild M-85.

First off, I like the 'hard switch' on my '73 M85 II. I even like Guild humbuckers, though I can't believe I'm saying that and feel like I've betrayed my '21 year old self who absolutely hated the mud-buckers, back in the day, on his/our Guild JS II fretless (but hey, kid, that was 39 years ago! Amps have changed! Get off my back!!).

Secondly, I have heard a very few jazz guys play electric fretless in a way that sounds like an upright, but not on Fender basses. I've owned one '50's V-necked P-Bass and a bunch of '60's basses. I have heard some wonderful P-Basses, but again, nothing that would approximate a stand-up.

But even as I type this, I am realizing that I never dove deep enough into the incredibly deep pocket of the upright bass world to come out the other side and be able to play upright lines with a 34" or 30" scaled electric bass. So I apologize for my intemperate remarks. Mea Culpa.

Do have one thing to say that may make sense. First, I love my '66 SF I bass with the pickup in the 'sweet-spot' (frono's term. My term would be 'only spot!'). That bass with, TI flats, makes the simplest, fundamental-ist bass lines sound wonderful. It's even fun to play root-third-fifth lines, just to hear that beautiful Bisonic/TI sound. Bella, bella.

There are things that a '30" bass can't do though. I've said this on LTG before, but if I were playing hard enough 'hard rock or blues' that my drummer and I, were, in effect, like Pinky and the Brain, trying to 'take over the world,' I'd be using a 34" scaled bass. Probably a Fender Bass, at that.

That's all I got. Wait, one more thing. The absolute most fun I have is playing bass on my SF I, with my drummer of 20 years, keeping the groove going. It's fun to play guitar, to write songs, etc. but the most fun is that 20-year Groove with 'Sticks'. Maybe I did fall into the Deep Pocket, somewhere along the line!

What about you guys, what's the most fun you have with music? Don't tell the guitar guys either, just us Bass guys. Those six-string guys are...such....whiners!!

bklynbass said:

I play upright about 80-90% of the time. To me, even the most old school, beat up, '59 P-Bass with dead flats doesn't even get in the ballpark of what an upright actually sounds like. Unless you're rolling all the tone off and using a mute. A Starfire, Kay 162, Harmony H-22, EB-2, Hofner, etc... yes, assuming you're talking about an amplified upright....but still only kind of. Actually, come to think of it, my '69 Danelectro is a dead ringer for 70s D.I.-ed upright a la Fred Hopkins.

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To comment on this and also Gilded's thoughts, I think the "upright-like" tone we are all talking about is most associated with short scale basses. As upright-like as it may or may not be... Again, not equal to an upright, but short scales just kinda have that similar pop, sometimes. So again back to the P-Bass...maybe for Cat there is something there but she tends to be "different than the rest of us" anyway, so i'm not sure what she meant.

and Gilded I am with you! Starfire 1! All day. no idea what i'm doing in playing it but they sound incredible and lots of fun. Also agree and have read elsewher on this forum...yes amps have evolved, and I've definately noticed a pattern forming with mine, as I noted above. sounds like the humbucker might not have sounded quite as nice, back in the 70s, when they first came out. have to confess though I am more of a guitar player than a bass player! but there is nothing cooler than a Guild bass! and nothing cooler sounding.

mavuser said:

To comment on this and also Gilded's thoughts, I think the "upright-like" tone we are all talking about is most associated with short scale basses. As upright-like as it may or may not be... Again, not equal to an upright, but short scales just kinda have that similar pop, sometimes.

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Yes, for sure, the shorter the scale, the less high end. Which makes them sound fatter, which one could interpret as more upright-ish. Which is why so many engineers and producers I've worked with are often surprised at how huge those little things sound.

To not veer - good luck on the sale. Looked like a reasonable price and I can recall when my check would have already been in the mail, but I need to be thinning the herd.

I think the neck PU on a JS with humbuckers does give you a tone that is hard to duplicate on many other basses and that tone approaches what people expect from a string bass. As my opinion of the humbuckers has refined I realize that my knock on them has to do with the fact that a) they are a one trick pony sonically and b) that is no longer the tone I strive for. But they do have their place.

I think the coolest JS bass on the planet is Happy Face's with two Dark Stars. Converting my JS bass to that configuration might make it the last bass standing for me if the emotion of being the only owner trumped the Starfire sound when they will only let me have one bass in the nursing home.

Gilded - have you tried a Pilot for your long scale needs?