1967 Starfire restoration

Hey all I am a newbie here was referred here from the talkbass site to help me with a restoration.

I recently acquired a new restoration project that I could use some help sourcing parts for. This is an awesome resonant body and neck. I was sure since it was stripped it had a neck reset, or repair which is generally the case with a stripped finish on a set neck instrument, but was not the case here. I am super excited to get this one refinished and put together. I am also toying with the idea of routing it for a bridge pickup since it has already been stripped and required a refin, and missing the face plate on the headstock. I am not sure I would be doing any damage to a vintage instrument.

What I am needing (pretty obvious from the pics)

Headstock face plate
Tuning keys
Truss cover
strap buttons
bridge
knobs
a wiring diagram would be awesome as well.

Thanks,
curtis

Curtis Novak said:

Headstock face plate
Tuning keys
Truss cover
strap buttons
bridge
knobs
a wiring diagram would be awesome as well.

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Welcome. Handle rings a bell. I'm not at TalkBass. Dude Pit, perhaps?

Faceplate I have never seen "parts" for. Some guitar folks may have some ideas. You could refin in natural and then use a gold decal...

Tuning keys - I think there is an equivalent still being made. If no one else comes up with a make and model ask again and I'll try harder.

Couple of folks have TRCs. Try Hans Moust who posts here under that name and maybe Ken Nash.

Dunno about strap buttons.

Vintage bridge might be hard to find. See below.

Some knobs on eBay that at least have the Guild shield.



That is from a Starfire II and the absence of a deep/hard switch suggests it is from mid-'67 or earlier. Since your label suggests an early 67 date that may be the best you can get.

The Newark Street Starfire is supposed to be a recreation/reimagining of a '66 sweet spot Starfire I. Superficially the TRC, strap buttons, knobs and bridge from the Newark Street look like they would fit on my '67. So if you can get parts from Guild/Fender...

Nag me to takes some measurements on the NS bridge since we know the mounting hole spacing is different for a 90's reissue and a vintage bass. the NS headstock is bigger so I doubt the overlay would help and expect the tuners have different hole spacing as well.

Curtis Novak the pickup maker? Yow!

I'll second Frono's suggestions for sources, also contact Fixit, he might be able to help you with the faceplate.
Curtis, are you going to wind a Hagstrom Bisonic, or are you just going to source one?

Curtis Novak said:

I am also toying with the idea of routing it for a bridge pickup since it has already been stripped and required a refin, and missing the face plate on the headstock. I am not sure I would be doing any damage to a vintage instrument.

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My vote is actually to keep it as a SF1, considering how clean it is...there is something just aesthetically cool about a SF1 bass w/the pup in the neck. plus it is said to sound a little diffrent than a SF2 bass when just using the neck pup. The bass may not be original vintage when its done, but the wood will be original vintage. if you leave it as a 1pup it will be a much closer vintage without cutting all those holes for a pup and controls. and it will be a smaller job. maybe there is a SF2 out there, or an uglier SF1 for the chop shop, in the future. also a Guild JS bass with your pups is probably a fantastic idea!

Default said:

Curtis Novak the pickup maker? Yow!

I'll second Frono's suggestions for sources, also contact Fixit, he might be able to help you with the faceplate.
Curtis, are you going to wind a Hagstrom Bisonic, or are you just going to source one?

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+1 on checking with Fixit regarding the headstock overlay. I know he can reconstruct them.

Hi, Curtis. Welcome to LTG.

People will express their opinions about whether to add a second pickup, but obviously it's your bass and you should have fun with it. I think you can make it a two pickup version if you want to.

If you decide to go in that direction, look at a lot of pics before you make up your mind where you want to make the cut. Originally, in '65-66,
these basses had a single Bisonic set fairly close to the Bridge. In '66 (I think) the pickups were moved to the Neck position for a lotta' bass and thump. The actual 2 pickup Bisonic SF II production models have the bridge pickup a lot closer to the bridge than the first generation '65-66 'near the bridge' pickup location. There may be as much as 1/2" difference in placement. frono has plenty of pics of SF basses somewhere. Those pics should be very helpful.

Caveat. There are two different vintage bridges, the early 'straight-across' bridges with either black plastic or wooden saddles and the later 'clam-shell' bridges, that are designed to look a little more like Guild arch-top harp tailpieces. The 'clam-shell' bridges make the bridge pickup appear to be closer to the saddles than with the earlier bridges. I also think that Guild, Inc. will be a source for SF parts as soon as the Newark Street line gets more established.

I'd love to hear a sample of your Bisonic-type pickups on the bass when you get through with it.

I have an early '66 SF I bass with a pickup near the bridge (actually, smack in the Fender P-Bass pickup area, if you take into account the difference in scale length of 34"vs 30"). I really love the sound of that bass and feel that it is a very versatile instrument. Having said that, I owned a '67 SF II bass for an hour once. It had the 'suck switch' and a master volume on it. I wanted very much to like it, but couldn't.

Why? Too much wiring made it sound bad in comparison to my SF I bass. I got nervous about it and swapped it for cash at the same show I bought it at and haven't looked back. Since then, I have played a '99 reissue SF II bass, another early '66 SF I bass and a DeArmond SF II bass. They have all been good, worthwhile instruments.

Having said that, the SF II basses have an ability to be more versatile than a single pickup SF bass. That's another good reason to throw a second pickup in the Correct Spot in the bridge area, particularly if you want potential customers to be able to hear your pickup at neck and bridge!

Oh, if I was doing the modding, knowing what I have heard, I wouldn't have a master volume or a 'deep' switch in the circuit. I would keep it as simple as possible, for the best, cleanest & clearest pickup sound.

Good luck, and thanks for letting us know about your project. If you plan to place more information or pics about your on the 'net, please send us the links.
Or better yet, post the whole thing here!

All the best, Harry Harris

Another welcome from a fellow Starfire Bass owner Curtis.

That bass is pretty close in serial to the '67 (BA-703 IIRC) that I owned and subsequently sold to Fixit when I got Greenie. If (as Dave says) Tom can reconstruct the headstock overlay, I have no doubt that he can, and he already has my old one as a model. Tom's an absolute artist (especially with finish issues), and a great guy to boot, so he comes well-recommended around here.

You've already received lots of great advice here, and I would second to bypass the deep/hard (AKA "suck") switch when you wire. Tom did just that with my SFII, though he left the master volume as is. You'll probably need to bypass the switch anyway, as there was some sort of transformer in the pup cavity that I see is not there on yours. Just as well. Tome also changed the value of the tone caps on mine to give it even more thump, of which it already had plenty.

Good luck with the restore, and keep us posted of your progress! I'd love to hear some sound samples with your pups when you get done.

Curtis,

Went to sleep last night thinking about how to find frono's Starfire Bass pics, so you could see all of the Bridge/Pickup variations. When I woke up this morning, Sandy (twocorgis, above) had left frono's SF bass pic link on another thread!

So here it is, sir, courtesy of Sandy the Magnificent, from Kings Park, NY:

https://picasaweb.google.com/Fronob

Enjoy, Harry

I meant to include the link in my earlier post, but got sidetracked. Yours got truncated somehow, Harry.

twocorgis said:

Yours got truncated somehow, Harry.

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Sadly, it happened at birth

I believe Curtis' project bass pre-dates both the suck switch and the master volume. So as the other guys said, no reason to incorporate them now.

and forgive me for being a fan of the SF1 with the pup in the neck, but even if I wasn't I def suggest keep a 1 a 1 and a 2 a 2, not a hybrid. The hybrids pop up from time to time and overall they have less appeal than a "straight 2."

i don't think it will be long before someone puts the Novak pups in SF2 to replace the humbuckers, and posts some footage to share with the world. People may just want to hear how it sounds in a SF1 also. A lot of people have a SF1. I think it was made for about 5 years with the Humbucker. (70-75?) and in my opinion many or most 70s SF basses have yet to be unearthed from closets/atticks/under the bed. We are still seeing a lot surface from the 60s. Just my 2 cents and definately do whatever you want. The fact that its a Novak bass will make it valuable no matter what. The Novak pup is a widely aknowledged acceptable replacement for a SF bass, even on one that is otherwise all original that could have just been left alone (to replace humbucker). So that part of the project is rock solid. Other than that its just a refin and hardware. So if it were me I'd keep it as close to original as possible. It will also lessen the investment overhead (if u keep it a 1) on an instrument that will not attain peak vintage value/appraisal, due to its changes

I have to say though I am very bias as I am a fan of single pup guitars and basses in general, and own more than one instrument set up like that. In the case of the SF bass I REALLY like the way it looks and sounds w the pup in the neck! (The Bisonic pup in the bridge or sweet spot sounds fantastic too, there is absolutely no stopping that thing). In this case my number one reason for my feelings honestly might be aesthetics, but either way, if it were me (which it is not)I would personally have a hard time cutting all those holes in that thing, if it looked like just keeping it a 1 could work out nice. Curtis whatever u decide to do I am very excited to see/hear the finished product and I'm positive u will do it right and I will be blown away no matter what. Cheers!

Thanks to everyone for welcoming me and offering their opinion, advice, and links. I really appreciate it!
I have always been leading towards keeping it a stock as an SF1 was just curious of everyone's opinion of the SF2 option. In all my years of restoration work, have always stuck to the doctor's oath of "do no harm". I was not aware they were ONLY single pickup at this era, and to to finally hear that it is a mixed opinion that it is an added benefit with a second pickup. I have not officially released it as it is still being tested, but I am making a Starfire (14.5k) pickup with a Darkstar (6.5k) tap so you get both pickups in one. I am thinking it might work will in this situation with maybe a push/pull pot or do you think there is a benefit of adding the Choke of the SF2 on this.

I will for sure be relying on all of you for advice as this progresses.
Thanks,
curtis

also if anyone wants to check out some feedback on Curtis Novak's pups you should "like" the Curtis Novak Classic Pickups page on Facebook. lots of pics and comments. i've read "it's hotter than my dark star" and other positive comments that include the word "Bisonic" in a very good way. Also someones got one in a Pbass and another in a Mustang/Music Master bass. lots of pictures (and lots of other pick ups too).

Welcome to LTG! Frono already mentioned Hans and Ken Nash, for easier reference I am just pasting the links to there pages here:
http://www.guitarchives.nl/guitarsgalore/parts.php
http://www.theguitarmechanic.com/Guildparts.html
Ralf

Folks have linked to my porn page.

The first SF II I have there is an early 1967 but there were factory SF II's earlier than that. I just have not gotten around tracking down documentation, but if it is important we could page Hans Moust.

The bass being restored is early enough that it would have been a SF I with the straight bridge and no suck switch. The suck switch came in later in 1967 and was on both SF I and II. The master volume only existed on SF IIs, obviously.

There is some photo interpretation posted on LTG spearheaded by mellowgerman that pretty convincingly makes the case that the PU on a "sweet spot" SF I is not in the same location as the bridge PU on a SF II.

Considering the vintage instrument today, most folks who have a SF I are quite happy and not interested in trading up to a SF II or having the SF I modded. Some conversions gone bad, IMO, on the porn page. The folks who have a SF II use both pickups. If I wanted some hard data to influence the conversion decision, I'd see if we could entice mgod to comment since he is both a professional bassist and owner of more Starfires than just about anyone else.

Sorry I didn't recognize the your name from your pickups. For whatever reason all of my instruments are factory or were modified by someone else, so I am only peripherally aware of the options in pickups today.

Curtis Novak said:

I have not officially released it as it is still being tested, but I am making a Starfire (14.5k) pickup with a Darkstar (6.5k) tap so you get both pickups in one. I am thinking it might work will in this situation with maybe a push/pull pot or do you think there is a benefit of adding the Choke of the SF2 on this.

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not sure what a choke on a SF2 is, but if a push/pull can get it done with one of the existing vol or tone pots and no real added switches, knobs, or holes, that would be totally nasty! Unassuming to the eye but much more beneath the surface. What color are you going to paint it?

I have learned that my limited signal processing background does not apply very well to analog signal processing and the necessary electronics. That said, I believe the "suck switch" adds a choke (transformer like coil thingie) in the 67+ basses with Bisonics. Clearly someone at Guild thought that was a good idea at the time but 40 years later the folks who think it was a bad idea are much more vocal than the ones who think otherwise.

fronobulax said:

I have learned that my limited signal processing background does not apply very well to analog signal processing and the necessary electronics. That said, I believe the "suck switch" adds a choke (transformer like coil thingie) in the 67+ basses with Bisonics. Clearly someone at Guild thought that was a good idea at the time but 40 years later the folks who think it was a bad idea are much more vocal than the ones who think otherwise.

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Yes indeed Frono, and Fixit took a picture of the one under Greenie's bridge pickup before he eviscerated it



Curtis' bass predates the suck switch, so this won't apply to him. Curtis, here's the link to the thread, as there may or may not be some other information of value to you contained there.

Again thanks everyone you have been a tremendous help, yeah the choke I was referring to is the suck switch. I just know of it as a choke through the Gibson EB stuff. Yes Frono coming from a science background, I learned years ago that the end results in this business is music and art not science. You really have to follow what you hear not what your logic tells you you should be hearing. I have worked very hard to keep that in check an listen with my ears not my eyes.

It is going back to red.

thanks everyone,
curtis

To follow up...

The tuning pegs on the NS Starfire are definitely bigger than those on the '67. I did not look at mounting holes but the shaft is larger. I would probably just take the mounting hole measurements and see what is in the market today.

I measured the screw tops as they appear on the bridge and subject to measurement error with a tape measure and eyeball, I think they NS bridge and the '67 bridge could use the same mounting holes. Given the price and rarity of vintage bridges in the parts market, I would see whether I could get a NS bridge and try that.