D'Addario extra light strings on F512

Ardor13

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Wow, this post is an oldie. No I did find any advantage to playing the silk and steel strings.

At the time I thought I was missing something major in my playing by not finding just the right strings. But after experimenting around for a while I'm back to using D'Addario PB lights on all my acoustic guitars. Medium strings on my 6 string guitars might improve the sound, but I'm happy with what I have and play everything mostly tuned to standard pitch using light gage D'Addario's.

After experiencing playing live through many different sound systems, the strings seem miniscule compared to what amplification, and your own personal playing characteristics sound like. But definitely the PB extra lights are a no go for me, especially on 12 string.


Ha yeah, I'm finding some amusement with reviving a thread from 2012, back when the world was supposed to end. Or did it end after all?

Anyway, I have the great privileged of testing out two brand new F-512's -- a maple and a rosewood. I have been playing strictly 12 string for about 6 years. So far the maple is in the lead, as far as the tone I am going for. I rather liked the tone of the stock Daddario EXP PB lights on the Maple!

As for the Rosewood, I play Fingerstyle, so I really can't get that dark wood guitar with PB strings to wake up with just fingernails. Sounds pretty sweet with picks, which I don't use much. The last few months I have become a string experimenting junkie, hence the following:

I have found that light PBs are consistently "stiffer" than light 80/20s, as far as requiring extra force to fret, especially when brand new. I suppose this translates to string tension, or maybe it's something else about the phosphor? I have a lingering wrist issue from playing a Taylor 855 with PB's a few weeks ago... and it was getting exacerbated by playing these F-512's. So I went and got Elixirs 80/20 Lights, Nanoweb. I would have gotten EXP 80/20's but all the stores were out, so I said what the heck, and got them. I did however order some EXP 80/20's on Amazon, arriving Tuesday.

So far, for the F512 Maple, I prefer the tone of the EXP PB's over the Elixirs 80/20, for my fingerstyle playing. But my problem is, the nerves in my fingers are on fire from fretting PB's over the last few weeks, and there's almost no way I am going to adjust to these strings. What I do like about the Elixir 80/20' is that they don't kill my fingers much, and in the past I have found the same relief with EXP 80/20s, on other guitars. The Elixirs do have some perks. Definitely more mandolin sparkles playing up the fret with a pick (but I don't use a pick much). The mids are defined and pronounced in a way that I like, but the bass is weaker, and there is less ring to the highs than the PB's, along with more phasy tingles and sizzles and edge-of-crashy. There are some pretty neat combing overtones when I get all the strings vibrating in an "open" way, and the decay is more harmonically loaded, and maybe even a little longer. But just not as beefy, and a certain PB richness missing, which I can't fully describe. But It's still acceptable, and at least now I can actually play the darn thing. I'll keep playing them and see if my day-1 observations hold up. They might break-in nice, and my playing adapt.

One interesting thing I did, was when I changed to the Elixir's, I started by changing only the low 6 strings, and leaving the EXP PB's on the first 6. I actually liked that 50/50 sound better than having all 12 elixirs. It still gave me some relief from having to press down those huge fat PB's on the low end, but getting their benefit on the highs.

My overall goal is to keep as much meat as possible, but have less string tension. Something about the stiffness of that phosphor doesn't work for me. Although I was able to get used to PB's on my old beater which has super low frets. I'm Hoping the EXP 80'20s will do something on the maple, and I'll let ya'll know. I'm probably going to throw 80/20s on the Rosewood, too, just to see if it brightens up my fingerstyle.

I should also add that I am super stoked about the SE700 Gotoh tuners on the 512's, where you insert the end of the string down into the tuner shaft. I love this for various reasons, including that it allows you to re-use strings, if you take them off prematurely for experimental purposes, like me. :)

Definitely appreciate anyone's suggestions on other light-gauge sets to try for a meatier tone with less of that PB stiffness. I'm thinking of maybe trying the Martin Retro 12 string sets. No idea if Nickel/Copper will be more or less comfortable, or tonally desired. https://www.martinguitar.com/1833-shop/retro/c-24/p-1316

And of course, I'll throw in the usual disclaimer that it's all about playing style, comfortability, and desired tonal results, rather than some universal "better". But I definitely get why folks like the EXP PB's.
 
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adorshki

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I have found that light PBs are consistently "stiffer" than light 80/20s, as far as requiring extra force to fret, especially when brand new. I suppose this translates to string tension, or maybe it's something else about the phosphor?
I'm mildly surprised, I would have thought the opposite, only because the only 80/20's I can recall off the top of my head were some Martin Marquis about ten or more years ago, I only left 'em on my D25 for maybe 4 or 5 hours before swapping 'em back to D'Addarios, and part of that was because they also sounded "harsh" to me.
A little later I saw a couple of other comments here about Martins feeling "stiff" compared to other makes.
Only recently when I was on my own quest to find a perfect compromise of tone vs playability for my own maple-bodied F65ce
(Extensive discussion here: http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?199255-Al-s-Farewell-Tour&highlight=silk; posts 5, 8, 9 & 10) was I reminded that core wire diameter on the wound strings can play a role in stiffness, and I suspect this might be why Martins have higher total set tension for a comparable set of gauges and alloy than GHS or D'Addario.
Even the profile may make a difference, as in whether the core is round or hexagonal.
Definitely appreciate anyone's suggestions on other light-gauge sets to try for a meatier tone with less of that PB stiffness. I'm thinking of maybe trying the Martin Retro 12 string sets. No idea if Nickel/Copper will be more or less comfortable, or tonally desired. https://www.martinguitar.com/1833-shop/retro/c-24/p-1316
I like the way you analyze your needs and realize there may be a combination of factors involved in the solution.
For sure understanding your own ergonomic needs is the primary thing to address.
I see you found the set tension numbers for those Martins, I'll just add that I was very impressed with all the potential solutions I found on the GHS site, and like Dreadnut might suggest Silk and Bronze for the playability issue.
Another note just in case you never saw it before:
Nut slot depth has a surprising impact on perceived fretting difficulty, on the first 3 or 4 frets, anyway.
Guilds are typically shipped at the top of the range because it's a whole lot easier to deepen 'em to a new owner's taste than to fill 'em up, of course.
:friendly_wink:
 
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Ardor13

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I'm mildly surprised, I would have thought the opposite, only because the only 80/20's I can recall off the top of my head were some Martin Marquis about ten or more years ago, I only left 'em on my D25 for maybe 4 or 5 hours before swapping 'em back to D'Addarios, and part of that was because they also sounded "harsh" to me.
A little later I saw a couple of other comments here about Martins feeling "stiff" compared to other makes.
Only recently when I was on my own quest to find a perfect compromise of tone vs playability for my own maple-bodied F65ce
(Extensive discussion here: http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?199255-Al-s-Farewell-Tour&highlight=silk; posts 5, 8, 9 & 10) was I reminded that core wire diameter on the wound strings can play a role in stiffness, and I suspect this might be why Martins have higher total set tension for a comparable set of gauges and alloy than GHS or D'Addario.
Even the profile may make a difference, as in whether the core is round or hexagonal.

I like the way you analyze your needs and realize there may be a combination of factors involved in the solution.
For sure understanding your own ergonomic needs is the primary thing to address.
I see you found the set tension numbers for those Martins, I'll just add that I was very impressed with all the potential solutions I found on the GHS site, and like Dreadnut might suggest Silk and Bronze for the playability issue.
Another note just in case you never saw it before:
Nut slot depth has a surprising impact on perceived fretting difficulty, on the first 3 or 4 frets, anyway.
Guilds are typically shipped at the top of the range because it's a whole lot easier to deepen 'em to a new owner's taste than to fill 'em up, of course.
:friendly_wink:


For the Daddarios you switched back to, where they PB's? That said, I agree 80/20's (regardless of make) are definitely brighter. I'm mainly just hoping some 8020's are warmer than others. I've witnessed that across brands, you will have variations in results, including comfort, and tone, as you were alluding to. I've had luck with Daddario EXP 80/20's in the past, both for mellowing out (breaking in after a week or so), and for having an acceptable (to me) tones thereafter. I want to think they are closer to to Daddario PB's, since they are both from same manufacturer.

I'm sure Martin 80/20 has it's own intricacies that will make it different... but like the old adage says, you can't know til you try a string with a guitar. Everyone seems consistently surprised when they try a string they think won't work, and then it works. I just have not tried the EXP 80/20s on the 512. However, I have tried them on my F-2512E because that's what they ship with, and honestly, they don't sound harsh at all, which is surprising. One might think they were PB's. I'm guessing the big/light cavity of the 2512 just swallows them up. THe 2512 is a maple, but I would say, several degrees less bright than the 512 maple, so maybe I'll be able to hit the right balance with the 8020's on the 512 maple. Or maybe not. I keep the action a bit high on the 2512, which seems to control the high range, and the action is rather low on the 512.

As for the Nut slot depth, thanks for pointing that out, as I was not thinking of that at all in the equation. My old beater has slightly lower nut slot depth, and a somewhat higher, but not "high", action. I'm sure I could hyper analyze the heck out of neck profile, fret height etc, as well. 512's are definitely a chunk of a guitar. Kind of like a Harley or something. As for the Bridge/ saddle height on these 512's, they sure as heck don't leave you any space to bring those down like the nut. My tech says if I want the action to come up correctly, new saddle is the only option.
 
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Ardor13

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I like the way you analyze your needs and realize there may be a combination of factors involved in the solution.
For sure understanding your own ergonomic needs is the primary thing to address.
I see you found the set tension numbers for those Martins, I'll just add that I was very impressed with all the potential solutions I found on the GHS site, and like Dreadnut might suggest Silk and Bronze for the playability issue.

About the Martin Retros, I'm really interested to see what they do, as they claim to leave a woodier tone. Hopefully removes the crash. I was impressed with them on my friends taylor 6 string, which are otherwise notoriously bright.

in general, 12 string is always a different animal. Adding 6 extra high-strung strings introduces a huge high frequency variable that can become dramatically pleasing or unfavorable, per one's chosen string set, and desired results. And of course the ergonomic eccentricities of pressing down 2 strings.

I see the string tension on the Martin Retros. I tried some DR Rare PB's recently on a Taylor 855, which are marketed as having lower string tension than other PBs, but they killed my fingers much worse than Daddario PB's. I thought okay, low string tension maybe, but perhaps there's more to it, such as composition.. some of which you alluded to: Round or hex core, manufacturing process of the metal and winding, different alloy sourcing, metallurgy secrets, etc etc. It is the glory of kings to search out a matter. :)
 
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Guildedagain

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So, are 80/100's really easier to play than PB, strictly D'addario speaking?

I might be looking for a "crossover" string, something between Silks and and PB.
 

Cougar

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Wait a minute. You guys are putting 12s on a 12-string?
 

Stuball48

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Enjoyed the views of each Ador13 and Al. I think the similarity is in the name-Both have the letters A. D. O. R. which must be directly related to indepth explaination
 

adorshki

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For the Daddarios you switched back to, where they PB's?
Yeah, uncoateds, Guild L350 or D'A EJ-16.
When I got my D25 Guild's L-350 set WAS D'A EJ-16's with Guild branded packaging, with one (to me) significant difference from D'A's set:
L350's used an .025 wound G, Ej-16's have an .024.
Fender switched supplier sometime in the early '00's and my search to replace led me to D'A, and I stocked up on Ej-16's and the PB025 single they offer so I could sub it in.
Was a strict one-string-type-only guy for 20 years after trying a few different types early on, and always winding up going back to "good ol' EJ-16's".
(Also figured "If they're good enough for Guild they're good enough for me")
Only "loosened up" recently when I wanted to find out what different strings might do for the F65ce.
And funny somebody should mention it, last weekend was bonding with the D40 again which I do still keep in standard tune with EJ-16's and realizing that yes it did have a lot more punch than the F65ce with silks, as Guildedagain was mentioning.
( I think I might have been the one to get him hotted up about trying silks on a vintage F30 in the first place.
Guild actually offered 'em themselves back in the day, a 12-string set as well. In fact recall reading somewhere that original [1987] JF30-12's , a 'poor man's F412' , 17" maple body; were shipped with S'n'S's)

I'm sure Martin 80/20 has it's own intricacies that will make it different... but like the old adage says, you can't know til you try a string with a guitar. Everyone seems consistently surprised when they try a string they think won't work, and then it works. I just have not tried the EXP 80/20s on the 512. However, I have tried them on my F-2512E because that's what they ship with, and honestly, they don't sound harsh at all, which is surprising. One might think they were PB's. I'm guessing the big/light cavity of the 2512 just swallows them up. THe 2512 is a maple, but I would say, several degrees less bright than the 512 maple, so maybe I'll be able to hit the right balance with the 8020's on the 512 maple. Or maybe not. I keep the action a bit high on the 2512, which seems to control the high range, and the action is rather low on the 512. So maybe it's crash city.
yep, I can't endorse anything more than "try as many as you can", these days.
Also found one more thread on string suggestions from another F2512 owner, in case you didn't see it yet, with more notes about "set tensions":
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?199016-12-string-string-guage

As for the Nut slot depth, thanks for pointing that out, as I was not thinking of that at all in the equation. My old beater has slightly lower nut slot depth, and a somewhat higher, but not "high", action. I'm sure I could hyper analyze the heck out of neck profile, fret height etc, as well. 512's are definitely a chunk of a guitar. Kind of like a Harley or something. As for the Bridge/ saddle height on these 512's, they sure as heck don't leave you any space to bring those down like the nut. My tech says if I want the action to come up correctly, new saddle is the only option.
If you got a guy you trust, suspect he could advise about the slots.
I'm thinking it could be no more than a few strokes of the file, where appropriate.
I do remember hearing about surprisingly low saddles (supported with pics) on early NH's; is that what the F512 is?
Personally suspect it was because bridges were exceptionally beefy (tall)< there was some discussion about it when first noted..
:friendly_wink:
 
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Ardor13

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Wait a minute. You guys are putting 12s on a 12-string?



Hi Cougar, if you are referring to the Martin Retros, maybe you saw the Medium set in that URL, but I'm referring the 12 string set which are 10-47's. Martin calls them extra lights, but usually they are lights.
 

Ardor13

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adorshki

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Enjoyed the views of each Ador13 and Al. I think the similarity is in the name-Both have the letters A. D. O. R. which must be directly related to indepth explanation

"It is the glory of kings to search out a matter."
:glee:

Ever heard of numerology, as in Kaballah?
:friendly_wink:
 

Ardor13

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I do remember hearing about surprisingly low saddles (supported with pics) on early NH's; is that what the F512 is?
Personally suspect it was because bridges were exceptionally beefy (tall)< there was some discussion about it when first noted..
:friendly_wink:

No, I have two 2019 model F-512's on hand, and their actions/setup are identical as far as I can tell. Would not want a lower action, which I'm sure is what many people consider "made to be played". I rather like it, for the most part. At first I thought it was a problem, because I'm so used to needing higher action. But at this point it sounds pretty good, and I don't want to make things harder to play while I'm trying to find easier strings to play.
 

Ardor13

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"It is the glory of kings to search out a matter."
:glee:

Ever heard of numerology, as in Kaballah?
:friendly_wink:

I have, but mainly just riffing on Proverbs in this scenario :)
 
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adorshki

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No, I have two 2019 model F-512's on hand, and their actions/setup are identical as far as I can tell. Would not want a lower action, which I'm sure is what many people consider "made to be played".
Yeah, I liked the set-up on all 3 of mine out of the box but most folks who'd change it opt for lower.
Nice to hear they're identical, consistency's a good sign.
Sounds like they may still be using the "beefy bridge" philosophy, then.

I rather like it, for the most part. At first I thought it was a problem, because I'm so used to needing higher action. But at this point it sounds pretty good, and I don't want to make things harder to play while I'm trying to find easier strings to play.
Right, one variable at a time.
 

Ardor13

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Try the Silk & Bronze.


I think I am going to order some GHS Silk/Bronze's. Al, I agree GHS does sure have a unique string lineup. It's unfortunate not more of the string types have a 12 string set.

That said, I just realized I have some Daddario PB extra lights (EJ41) on hand.

http://www.daddario.com/DADProductD...ng_Acoustic_Guitar_Strings__Extra_Light__9_45

I calculated the string tensions for the PB Lights at 218 pounds. The GHS Silk and Bronze's are 213.8, so I conclude that the PB XL's have a similar chance, and at 4 pounds more, perhaps an extra touch of meat. ( Would be so convenient if Daddario would sum all the sets by poundage instead of just giving individual string weights. )

I think I'll throw the PBXL's on while I'm waiting for the Silk/Bronze. Before/If I take the PB/XL's off, I might experiment by blending in some other strings. It's definitely going the extra mile, but one thing I rarely hear people talk about is blending 12 string sets to get the right balance of their goals, when discrete sets don't quite do the trick.

Thankfully I also just got ahold of a music nomad string winding drill bit. I just tested and confirmed that these bits will fit on the Guild f512 head-stocks without knocking adjacent pegs. This will make life easier

https://smile.amazon.com/Music-Noma...sic+nomad+bit&qid=1568126143&s=gateway&sr=8-1
 
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adorshki

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( Would be so convenient if Daddario would sum all the sets by poundage instead of just giving individual string weights. )
They do but you gotta start at the "family type" (like "PB") and then use the "Family tension chart" button:
http://www.daddario.com/DADProductF...&familyid=9&productname=Phosphor_Bronze_Wound

(
Thankfully I also just got ahold of a music nomad string winding drill bit. I just tested and confirmed that these bits will fit on the Guild f512 head-stocks without knocking adjacent pegs. This will make like easier
:glee:
Yup, for sure one reason I never experimented much was that I absolutely HATE changing strings.
Because of my obsessive method of winding 'em without "folding a string under itself", it takes at least an hour and more when a little cleaning's thrown in.
(I unwind 'em gradually, too, in x/cross-over pattern just like releasing torque on wheel nuts, not just clip 'em, but it's still pretty quick)
 

Ardor13

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They do but you gotta start at the "family type" (like "PB") and then use the "Family tension chart" button:
http://www.daddario.com/DADProductF...&familyid=9&productname=Phosphor_Bronze_Wound


:glee:
Yup, for sure one reason I never experimented much was that I absolutely HATE changing strings.
Because of my obsessive method of winding 'em without "folding a string under itself", it takes at least an hour and more when a little cleaning's thrown in.
(I unwind 'em gradually, too, in x/cross-over pattern just like releasing torque on wheel nuts, not just clip 'em, but it's still pretty quick)

Thanks, that's a great comparison tool.

Yeah, with 12 string, I usually change them 2 at a time. Alot of people don't think it's necessary, but why not. With 12 strings, I definitely tune down and up in increments, just so the guitar doesn't get irritated. And for the G string, I always get that up to F or F#, and get everything locked down first before slowly bringing it up G. No more breaks when tuning.
 

Ardor13

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They do but you gotta start at the "family type" (like "PB") and then use the "Family tension chart" button:
http://www.daddario.com/DADProductF...&familyid=9&productname=Phosphor_Bronze_Wound

BTW, I'm suddenly realizing that D'addario has two EXP lights sets... One is a Light 12-52 set...

http://www.daddario.com/DADProductD...Phosphor_Bronze_Acoustic_Guitar__Light__12_53

THe other EXP Light Set is a 10-47...

http://www.daddario.com/DADProductD...Bronze_12_String_Acoustic_Guitar_Light__10_47



Maybe that is what Cougar was asking about earlier. However, the non-EXP 12-52 sets are listed as Mediums, and the Light sets are 10s!. I find that a rather confusing marketing approach.

I did not notice this at first and had to re-write this post.
 
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adorshki

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Maybe that is what Cougar was asking about earlier. However, the non-EXP 12-52 sets are listed as Mediums, and the Light sets are 10s!. I find that a rather confusing marketing approach.
I suspect it's an oversight on D'A's part, and it's surprisingly labor-intensive to update webpages.
FWIW; the .12-52's would be lights in 6-string parlance, and the .010-.047's were "extra-lights" ("XL350"), Guild actually did spec 'em on my F65ce, but the corresponding .010-.049 12-string set was call "L1250" for "light" in the '98 catalog:
https://www.gad.net/Blog/2010/07/26/guild-gallery-catalog-1997-1998/#gallery-25
So suspect the existing convention was "grandfathered in" when they introduced EXP's, if you follow my drift.
I don't think Guild themselves ever spec'd .12-.52's after that (and even for at least 4 or 5 years before), even in New Hartford, where the full-size dreads and jumbos did get mediums.
yep, 2013 F512 specs show EXP38's:
https://web.archive.org/web/2013061...s/details/?partno=3852900821#simpleContained4

Note New Hartford also saw the renewal of the Guild-D'A relationship after a separation from approximately '04 to '10, and the first use of coated strings.
 
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