Question regarding '66 Gibson J-45 Value

Hi fellow Guildsters -

I am more of an electric guitarist, though I do love my Guild G312 and D50. These are however my only acoustics, and while I enjoy playing them, I just tend to reach for the Bluesbird when I have time to play anymore. With that said, I have an opportunity to purchase a '66 Gibson J-45 in VG+ condition with hardshell plastic case. Problem is, I have no idea what these are worth, so I am hoping someone here that has more exposure to mid-60's Gibby's maybe can help me out.

The guitar in question is an extremely rare color, being Red with Mahogany back/sides and it looks identical to this one:


It is in really good shape, with a few minor dings and a little bit of finish checking - not a big deal at all. It had a Gibson factory neck reset at some point and was apparently marked with "BGN" (bargain?) at that point. I will get a chance to play it this weekend, but according to the seller, who is a world reknown guitarist and a dear friend, "it plays better than any acoustic guitar" he has ever played. I believe this, as he would not lie and he definitely knows his stuff.

I just have no idea how much these are worth on the market, especially with the "BGN" stamp. He is listing it for $3500 and offering to sell to me for $3k, which seems reasonable for a completely mint '66 J-45 (based on my research). I just don't know that he hasn't just thrown a number out there without knowing the market value for one thyat is not collector grade. So while I may fall in love and have to have it all costs, I at least don't want to be in a position of dropping 3G's and then finding out if I want to resell it I grossly overpaid. I just have no clue what this would be worth and I see prices all over the map for these mid-late '60's J45's. I mean, $1200-3500 is what have found for recent prices...this is a pretty extreme range for what appears to be a pretty narrow range of condition - good to mint.

If I say that $2k is kind of an average, how much does a rare color add to the value and how much does a neck reset and "BGN" stamp detract from the value? Any opinions?

Much appreciated!
Craig

Not a Gibson expert, nor do I play one on tv, but the Orlando guitar show had a bunch of those(not sure of the age) that were beat to smurf and the asking price was north of 2k. Check ebay for current auctions and see where the J45 stands. Not much help, I know... :-(

To me, 3K sounds a bit high, especially with the BGN stamp, plus if it has the adjustable bridge, they have the reputation of damping the sound. Offer him $2500, $2250 if it has the adjustable bridge, or better yet offer $2250 and $2000, settle for $2500 or $2250.
Just my 2 cents.
Brad

I do like the Gibson J45 guitar, although I snatched up a mint 2007 D55 at Elderly last year at a resonably good price. Therefore my "cool dreadnaught" slot is filled for my current guitar corral.

I can understand the yearning to own a vintage guitar of some sort. Certainly an older Gibson is a good item to consider. There is also no problem with owning a newer year model of used guitar. The average guy really can't tell the difference between an 8-10 year old guitar or a 30 -40 year old guitar. Its all a matter of what you would prefer to play.

For the cost consideration, I personally feel comfortable with limiting my used guitar budget to the $1200 to $2000 range. But I am willing to make an exception for some unique aspect in a guitar that could represent more value.

Good luck,
Craig

Thanks for the input guys. I am on the fence with this one. I don't want to low-ball him, as he is a friend and has been extremely gracious with teaching my son. I want to pay a fair price. I just don't know what is "fair" as far as market value as the prices are all over the place for similar guitars in similar condition (but mostly in the standard burst).

It does have the adjustable bridge, which I have seen several references to those not being preferable. All else is original. But again, it is more of a player obviously with the neck reset and BGN stamp. Anyway, I will check it out this weekend and see where we go. Also, following that I may have an extremely mint '97 D50 for sale, ha ha. Don't know that I need two Dreads.

There's a big difference between good, really good and mint condition, in terms of Value.

Your friend has a comparatively rare version (50-150) of a workhorse Gibson guitar made in large quantities (12,000 units) from '66 to '68. There is also a comparable number of black ones with the white guard, too. PIckguards are pretty thick.

I can't imagine a scenario where Gibson would have reset a customer's neck and then stamped it as a Bargain (or BGN) Instrument. That didn't happen. Your friend may seriously think it happened, but it didn't. Not saying the guitar didn't have a neck reset, just saying they wouldn't have marked a private citizen's guitar that way. But wait, read this quote from a Major Collector's web site:

Gibson often marked inferior quality guitars as "seconds", and sold them at a discount to dealers or employees. These markings were stamped into the wood on the back of the peghead. A "2" stamp is sometimes seen, designating a "second", which had some cosmetic flaw. If there is a serial number on the back of the peghead, the "2" is usually seen centered above or below it. Also sometimes stamped was "CULL", which is another designation of a second. Again, this stamp is seen on the back of the peghead. The worse Gibson reject is the "BGN" stamp, designating that instrument as a "bargin" guitar. These were only sold to employees at substantial discounts. This stamp is also seen on the back of the peghead. Sometimes the "BGN" is stamped vertically with the "N" below the "G" which is below the "B". BGN instruments weren't acceptable to Gibson as sellable to the public.
All second instruments are usually worth less than the same guitar that is not a second (given condition as the same). BGN instruments are worth less than a second instrument because these tend to have some fairly serious cosmetic flaw.


Hmmm, a BGN is worth less than a 'second'. Not good.

I've owned two of these guitars and condition is absolutely everything. If they are perfect, they are collectable. If they are tired, they don't have much more than cool player value. Like everything, the market was higher 4-5 years ago. The highest they ever went in the good days was about $4K. I don't see a really good one being worth $3500 in 2012, especially a BGN guitar. In fact, I think Brad is spot-on in his valuation.

Of course, you know that Gibson has reissued both the red and black '68 J-45s. In my opinion, this 'de-energizes' a large segment of the demand for the real ones that are not in 'great shape' (I base that on the dip that 19th century Colt pistols took for a number of years following a large number of reissue models becoming available in the latter part of the 20th Century, as well as my own experience buying and selling guitars). It won't affect the truly mint models, but it will affect every thing else.

How do they sound? Those late '60's Gibsons have large bridge plates underneath the top, as well as 'faux' X-bracing (long story). The bridge plates came in two sizes, BIG and HUGE. Either size will dampen a top. You already know what an adjustable bridge will do to the sound.

Oh, small necks, too. '66 J-45s have narrow (1 5/8") but deep necks. '67 and '68 have Pencil necks; 1 9/16". By the way, one of my guitars sounded good, the other sounded dead. Neither were stamped 'BGN'.

If I were selling something to a friend that had Potential Collector Value, I'd let George Gruhn's store appraise it (costs you $50). Then, I'd sell it to 'my' friend for about 80% of that Value. Why only 80%? I don't have a brick and mortar store, an Internet store or a Customer Base that I can call. Heck, if you sell a guitar on eBay, it's gonna cost you 10-12% before they get through with you.

I just checked completed eBay sales for 'regular, non-custom colored' '66-'68 J-45s. One went for $3K, a bunch went for $2K, some for less. Still, I would not pay $3K for a BGN guitar and I like Gibson flat tops, a lot. I'd have to really want it to pay the $2250 that Brad is talking about, but that's just me.

Good luck figuring it out, Harry

Harry - thank you so much for taking the time to comment so thoroughly. This was exactly what I was hoping to get out of a response. There was a lot of great information included in that post.

I have told the seller that I am not opposed at all to buying the guitar at a "fair" price but I think we may be too far apart at this point. I found the link to the Vintage Guitars site that had the BGN description and forwarded to him. I don't know whether we will come to an equitable conclusion or we just decide he should look for another buyer, but either way I feel more comfortable in having more information to discuss with him based on your valuable post. I am not really looking at this as a collector or a flipper, I just want a fair deal on a nice guitar that will bring me many years of enjoyment without me thinking everytime I pick it up that I "lost my butt".

Thanks for that.

Craig

Craig,

You're welcome and thanks in turn for plowing through my long treatise on red '60's J-45s.

HH

gilded has hit all the critical points. Well stated.

FWIW the Vintage Guitar Price Guide, 2012 edition puts a range of $1,900-$2,300 for a excellent condition '66/'67 J-45. This assumes the standard sunburst finish. They list a solid black colour for 1968, with a value of $3,000-$3,700. Also a Cherry colour, 1968 with a value of $1,825-$2,200.

My general feeling is the VGPG price ranges are pretty good for Martins, Gibsons, Ricks, etc.. the big names. The Guild prices are a bit less certain simply due to the smaller sample size. So, based on all that, and strictly my opinion, but $3k seems a bit high