P90 that's closest to Franz pickup?

Jeff Haddad

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Well, I got the X550P a couple months ago, and the Duncan P90's that are in it are way too hot - 8.05k neck, 8.95 bridge. What is the best/closest replacement P90 to a Franz? Lollar, Fralin, other? Chime in with your experience.
 

Jeff Haddad

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Also, when I tried measuring the Franz pu's in my X175, I got no reading. I was touching the meter's leads to a cord plugged into the guitar. I know this isn't the most accurate method, but it didn't work at all. It worked with two other guitars, and the guitar works, so I know it's not the meter.
 

Zelja

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Jeff Haddad said:
Also, when I tried measuring the Franz pu's in my X175, I got no reading. I was touching the meter's leads to a cord plugged into the guitar. I know this isn't the most accurate method, but it didn't work at all. It worked with two other guitars, and the guitar works, so I know it's not the meter.

As long as the volume & tone knobs are up, switch is in th right posn & the output jack/lead are OK, then that should be pretty close. When doing this you will be reading the PU resistance in parallel with the volume pots resistance. As the pots resistance is so much higher than the PUs resistance, you will read just a bit less (200 or so ohms) than the actual PU DC resistance (assumimg PU is about 6k, pots 250k).
 

gusto

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i bought BillyD's X550P and he had swapped out the Duncans for Lollar low winds, he had thought it was a closer match. Comparing it to my 1960 with Franz's, the Lollars lack the twang factor. Overall the Lollars sound amazing though. I have had a bunch of P90 guitars and have never played one that could get that treble bite of a Franz or that country twang.
 

AcornHouse

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Jeff Haddad said:
Well, I got the X550P a couple months ago, and the Duncan P90's that are in it are way too hot - 8.05k neck, 8.95 bridge. What is the best/closest replacement P90 to a Franz? Lollar, Fralin, other? Chime in with your experience.
Another option is to get some custom wound pups. My local Lutherie will build them to your specs for the same money.
http://unitedlutherie.com/products/
 

Walter Broes

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The Franz pickups I have are 5 and 6K, I've never tried it, but maybe re- or custom-winding something that low would do the trick?
 

littlesongs

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I don't want to be discouraging, but I think the only way to get there would be a meticulous custom job or an old Franz. The '63 sisters are two almost identical guitars equipped with a P90 and a Franz. My experience is limited to a specific style, canon of songs and setup, but the two pickups are not really very similar to my ears. I think the P90 and the Franz act more like distant cousins than close siblings. They share tonal characteristics with that branch of the single coil family, but the parallels seem to be based more on the way they look rather than the way they sound.

The T100 with the custom handmade P90 has medium roundwounds. Plugged into the Sano it is an old familiar friend who has a pragmatic outlook on life. The lows, mids and highs have plenty to say and they keep the conversation civil. No unpredictable fits of laughter in the tremolo. No inexplicable crying jags through the reverb. The sound is always warm and inviting like the smell of a wood stove, cornbread or apple pie on a crisp autumn night. The P90 is strong, well-mannered and balanced, but it can hold it's own in any situation. It is a thoroughly enjoyable sound and always good company.

The T100 with the original Franz has medium flatwounds. Plugged into the Sano it is a time machine. There are deep baritone lows that can sneak up like warm ocean waves spilling through the tremolo and reverb. Highs show a hint of teeth like a card player gathering his winnings. There is always a packed house full of happy mids who are all glad to be there and never pick a fight. This pickup is very sensitive to picking dynamics and seems to enjoy being mischievous, but nothing sounds like it. The Franz is a seductive and dangerous character drawn from smoky clubs, detective novels and film noir.

There are probably far more prosaic and concrete technical explanations for all of it. but I love them both for entirely different reasons.
 

zizala

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I'd also be interested to know if anyone's winding lower output P-90's that have a Franz like tonality.

I have Franz equipped Guilds that span 1953-1960 and really do appreciate them all in everything from early 17" big body X-150's to very small hollowbodies like the M-65.

They do have some variability.....some are darker, some are brighter, some thicker toned others thinner.....maybe its how they've aged, or the way they were originally made, but theres a certain character to the sound that they all share.
(littlesongs says it well above!!)

I sold what others thought was a great ES-125TC because my raggedy '60 T-50 was absolutely sensational to my ears in comparison.

I have a '47 ES-300 thats a joy to play and it has a fine sounding original P-90 but its a bit dark toned for my tastes.....sure I can choose to EQ or use an old Gibson amp, but I do daydream about slipping a Franz under that black cover.....I think I'd prefer it that way!

ziz
 

Charlie Vegas

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Jeff Haddad said:
Well, I got the X550P a couple months ago, and the Duncan P90's that are in it are way too hot
gusto said:
i bought BillyD's X550P and he had swapped out the Duncans
Huh? :shock: Two X550P's(?) I just looked at Gusto's profile and it looks like he has a X500T.
 

AlohaJoe

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littlesongs said:
Plugged into the Sano it is an old familiar friend who has a pragmatic outlook on life. The lows, mids and highs have plenty to say and they keep the conversation civil. No unpredictable fits of laughter in the tremolo. No inexplicable crying jags through the reverb. The sound is always warm and inviting like the smell of a wood stove, cornbread or apple pie on a crisp autumn night. The P90 is strong, well-mannered and balanced, but it can hold it's own in any situation. It is a thoroughly enjoyable sound and always good company.

The T100 with the original Franz has medium flatwounds. Plugged into the Sano it is a time machine. There are deep baritone lows that can sneak up like warm ocean waves spilling through the tremolo and reverb. Highs show a hint of teeth like a card player gathering his winnings. There is always a packed house full of happy mids who are all glad to be there and never pick a fight. This pickup is very sensitive to picking dynamics and seems to enjoy being mischievous, but nothing sounds like it. The Franz is a seductive and dangerous character drawn from smoky clubs, detective novels and film noir.
Well said!!
1ixydg.gif
 

58Blonde

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The T100 with the original Franz has medium flatwounds. Plugged into the Sano it is a time machine. There are deep baritone lows that can sneak up like warm ocean waves spilling through the tremolo and reverb. Highs show a hint of teeth like a card player gathering his winnings. There is always a packed house full of happy mids who are all glad to be there and never pick a fight. This pickup is very sensitive to picking dynamics and seems to enjoy being mischievous, but nothing sounds like it. The Franz is a seductive and dangerous character drawn from smoky clubs, detective novels and film noir.
littlesongs that was spot on :)
 

littlesongs

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Thanks for the kind words! No amount of hyperbole compares to plugging one into an amplifier. That is where the magic happens.
 

Jeff Haddad

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littlesongs - wow, thanks for the well thought-out response. I think the happy mids are due to the flatwounds. :)

It sounds like the underwound Lollars or Fralins would be the way to go if I want to replace the Duncans. The Duncans do sound good and tonight I played around with the amp settings (what a concept!) and am somewhat more pleased with the status quo. I'm playing through a Bandmaster reverb in a Super Reverb setup (4x10's) and cut the bass and mid to about 2 with the treble on 5, vol on about 3 - 3.5 and got a very good sound. I'll probably leave well enough alone for now with the guitar - I'm just a stay at home player and just want to enjoy it as is.

Thanks for all the opinions and help.
 

Darryl Hattenhauer

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Ziz said
They do have some variability.....some are darker, some are brighter, some thicker toned others thinner.....maybe its how they've aged, or the way they were originally made
In a Mandolin Brothers newsletter about fifteen years ago, I read that Franzes were wound with an inconsistent number of spins, so they vary in the number of wraps in the coil (if those are the correct terms).

And as Ziz suggests, there must be a whole lot of variation in aging.
 

Coughlin

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I would just get a P-90 and have it rewound to whatever you want. Should be fairly straight forward. You might check out Seymour Duncan Antiquity as well.
 

Quantum Strummer

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The closest Franz-like sound I've heard from a non-Franz pickup comes from the kleenex box pickups in my Kay Jazz II. Compared to a P90 wound to ~7.5K they're lighter & brighter. (I won't even attempt to compete with littlesongs in the description department. :tennis: ) They sound gorgeous with a good set of flatwounds too. Roger Fritz might be able to wind a set of 'em to order (he's made repros of various Kay models over the past decade or so) but I imagine they'd ¢o$t too.

-Dave-
 

mad dog

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I've never heard a regular type P-90 that sounds close to the Franz sound. Same goes for the sorta P-90 types I've heard - those in a yamaha SGV600, the Mosrite/Hallmark types, the kleenex box p/us in a couple old Kays.

Words fail me in this area. I can hear similarities between P-90s and Franz p/us, but the differences are hard to describe.
MD
 

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SD wound a P90 "Franzesque" for the T-500, but I don't have a Franz equipped box to compare it to.
 

Walter Broes

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Wow, someone revived a very old thread! :)

A friend of mine has a guitar with a set op pickups by Curtis Novak - dogear P90's wound to vintage franz spec by Curtis Novak. He nailed it as far as I'm concerned.
 

kakerlak

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Honestly, I've always thought it was interesting how similar the two are in construction. Coil geometry seems really close, and they both have that big coil sitting on top of two bar magnets with a metal anchor bar in the middle. I wonder if the magnets are the biggest difference. It would be interesting to swap around parts between the two, to the extent it's possible, and see what makes them sound like each other.

For what it's worth, I think Franz pickups sound closer to Fenders than P-90s. Go listen to some Paladins stuff and you can almost convince yourself you're listening to a Strat with a lot of loose, gainey reverb on top of it.
 
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