Need help identifying a ~~ mystery ~~ Guild 12-string

I have several Guild 12-strings and just added another to the stable: a used tobacco sunburst, which arrived via UPs today, ordered online from a store in Virginia.

The label in the soundhole is missing, however. (If one was ever present -- the area where the sticker should be is spotless, no glue residue.)

The guitar was advertised as a JF30-12, but it's not. It's a full-sized jumbo, but it hasn't got the laminated bowl-shaped maple back.

Rather, it has a two-piece rosewood back, flat and braced, like an F-512. But it's got the Chesterfield headstock, so it's not a 512.

The date rubber-stamped on the neck block is "Jan 11, 1988." (It's in incredibly good condition -- like new, not a mark on it. But for the date stamped inside I never would have believed it was 23 years old.)

The serial number on the back of the headstock is unusual: 207027. (And there is no "Made in USA" stamped under the serial number.)

On the "Dating Your Guild" pages, I'm not seeing any 200000 series serial numbers.

At first I had a sinking feeling that maybe I'd got socked with a Guild knockoff. But I don't think so. I have several Guild 12's, so I know the product quite well.

To be sure, though, I took off the truss rod cover, and, sure enough, it has the double truss rod system, and none of the Guild copies I'm aware of do.

Also, the tuners are Guild branded and "Guild" is burned into the wood on the inside center strip.

So what is it? A model offered exclusively through some chain, and thus the odd serial number, in a series that isn't listed on either of the "Dating Your Guild" sites?

Hans? Anyone? Any ideas?

Thanks all,

Glenn Jones
Cambridge, MA

Hello wileypickett,

OK, without having seen the instrument but with the information you gave, I would think this is what might be going on with your guitar.

wileypickett said:

The label in the soundhole is missing, however. (If one was ever present -- the area where the sticker should be is spotless, no glue residue.)

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During the time that the body was made, Guild didn't use glue for the labels. They're self-adhesive stickers that do fall out if the surface is not entirely clean and you will see no trace. You might see some discoloration on a mahogany guitar, but not so much on rosewood.

The guitar was advertised as a JF30-12, but it's not. It's a full-sized jumbo, but it hasn't got the laminated bowl-shaped maple back.
Rather, it has a two-piece rosewood back, flat and braced, like an F-512. But it's got the Chesterfield headstock, so it's not a 512.
The date rubber-stamped on the neck block is "Jan 11, 1988." (It's in incredibly good condition -- like new, not a mark on it. But for the date stamped inside I never would have believed it was 23 years old.)

Click to expand...

I would think that the body was for a JF-65(R)-12, which was made for a very short period during the late '80s, shortly before the (re)introduction of the JF-55-12 ( formerly known as the F-512).

The serial number on the back of the headstock is unusual: 207027. (And there is no "Made in USA" stamped under the serial number.)

Click to expand...

That serial number should be part of a batch of F-212XL guitars that were done in 1979. They didn't use the 'Made in U.S.A.' stamp during that period, although the stamp was introduced not too long after that, in combination with the new serial number system with the 2-letter prefixes for each individual model.

On the "Dating Your Guild" pages, I'm not seeing any 200000 series serial numbers.

Click to expand...

There's more missing on those pages but you will find the 200000-series under 1979

Also, the tuners are Guild branded

Click to expand...

Those are probably the Schaller M-6 mini tuners, which were used in 1979 but not by the end of the '80s.

So what is it? A model offered exclusively through some chain, and thus the odd serial number, in a series that isn't listed on either of the "Dating Your Guild" sites?

Click to expand...

There are more possibilities but the most likely one is:

The guitar was put together from 2 different guitars, as a repair or a project. That may have been done in- or outside the factory. The fact that the guitar looks brand new ( and was done in sunburst) might be an indication that the refinish was done to hide the 'signs' that the guitar was (re)assembled at a later date. If you show me the sunburst, I could probably tell you whether it is something that would have come out of the Guild factory or not.

That is what I think now. I may change my mind somewhat after seeing the guitar though.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

Hans is on the case:



8) :wink:

Amazing stuff Hans, simply amazing :shock: :shock: :shock: 8) 8) 8)

The plot thickens...

Pictures please, Glenn!

cool stuff, subscribing 8)

This forum kicks azz. :mrgreen:

Thanks so much, Mr. Hans!

How curious -- '70s neck, '80s body. Have you come across hybrids before?

Do you think Guild had some extra parts lying around and just assembled a guitar out of them?

If it is a hybrid, I feel pretty sure it was a Guild factory job, as the sunburst is perfect; the binding / top seam lines are sharp as a tack; the finish is clean and immaculately even throughout; and the lacquer finish, applied somewhat thickly, where the neck heel meets the side of the body is very characteristic of Guild (except on the few I've run across that had had neck resets).

I took off two of the the tuners this afternoon (yes, they're the same mini Schallers as in your picture, Hans) to see if there were signs of other tuners ever having been on there. But the screw holes and indentations in the finish match the tuners exactly.

All that said, I will post a few pictures ASAP.

Thanks all -- what a resource!

Glenn (Wiley)

wileypickett said:

How curious -- '70s neck, '80s body. Have you come across hybrids before? Do you think Guild had some extra parts lying around and just assembled a guitar out of them?

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Hello again Glenn,

No, I don’t think we’re looking at a hybrid. A hybrid would be a guitar that was assembled at the factory from parts that should have been used on other (different) models. That is not what we’re looking at here.

First of all the neck has a serial number (that belongs to an F-212XL) from 1979 with the proper tuners for that model during that particular period, which indicates it has been part of a completed F-212XL otherwise it would not have gotten a serial number.

I took off two of the the tuners this afternoon (yes, they're the same mini Schallers as in your picture, Hans) to see if there were signs of other tuners ever having been on there. But the screw holes and indentations in the finish match the tuners exactly.

Click to expand...

I don't know if you noticed it, but the photo I posted was from an F-212XL from the same batch as the guitar that your neck came from. The serial # is not too far from the one on your guitar.

Now the body could have been lying around at the factory. It is very well possible that an F-212XL with a damaged body had come in at Guild for repair and it was decided that the repair could be performed with the use of a spare body. But it is also possible that the work was done outside the Guild factory.

When I answered to your posting yesterday, I was working pretty much off the top of my head suggesting that it may have been the body of a JF-65(R)-12. Now that I think about it I realize that the ‘Jan. 11, 1988’ neck block date would have been a little too late for a JF-65(R)-12. By that time the model was already out of the line, so it wouldn't make sense if they would have assembled a body around that date. The only other jumbo size rosewood guitar body from that period could have been the body of a JF-50R, but that would have been a 6-string.

At this point I’m still working without any photos that could help me on the way to a final conclusion, but untill we get some we can play around a little with some of the possibilities.

If it was the body of a JF-65(R)-12 then the body binding should be the Deluxe ‘55/65’ style with the extra thin black lines on the side, as in this photo:



If it was the body of a JF-50R, then the body binding would have been just plain white, without the extra black lines.

Next conclusion would be that if they used the body of a JF-50R, it would have been a 6-string guitar body ( as I mentioned earlier) and the top would have had scalloped bracings, which a 12-string wouldn’t have had.

So, there you have a couple of pointers that you can work with. Get inside that guitar and take a look at the braces, that is ........ if the body binding indicates that it might have been the body of a JF-50R.

I’m curious what the outcome will be.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore

Glenn, you need to get a camera inside and outside of that thing for us to peruse!

For the record, there are plenty of folks out there who could spray a burst onto a refinished guitar and make it look great, Glenn, so don't be so sure it's a factory job. I'm not saying it isn't, but it'd be very hard to be sure.

PIX!!!!!

Hello Glenn,

Was just doing some research for somebody and for some reason I thought of this old thread, of which I don't seem to remember how it ended.
Did you ever show us photos? Did we ever figure out what it was?

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

hansmoust said:

Hello Glenn,

Was just doing some research for somebody and for some reason I thought of this old thread, of which I don't seem to remember how it ended.
Did you ever show us photos? Did we ever figure out what it was?

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

Click to expand...

When I first started reading this post, I didn't realize how old it was until I began to see names that I haven't seen in a while. :shock:
Now I'm up to speed and this sounds like one of those classic cold cases that we hear about now and then.
The mystery continues. :wink:

Joe

Calling Glenn! We need your pictures! Because:
Ralf

To add to the cold case, could the back and sides be mahogany?
I have seen some mahogany that when finished looked close enough to rosewood to make me wonder which it was.
This guitar could just be an F-212XL.

Hello Hans, and curious others,

Thanks for the nudge! Since first writing about this, I had a Bridge Doctor installed on the guitar, as there was some bellying behind the bridge. Other than than it didn't seem to need any work --it's in great shape; cosmetically super clean; a good player; and that characteristic earth-rending Guild 12-string jumbo sound.

However, the guitar is currently at my mom's in New Jersey, about five hours from where I am in Massachusetts. I've been spending a considerable amount looking after my mom (Alzheimer's) this past year, and it's handy having a guitar to hand down there, and not having to carry one back and forth.

I'll be down there again within a couple weeks and will take some photos then.

Any areas in particular you'd like me to focus on?

BTW, I don't think it has the extra line in the binding you mentioned -- so not the body of a JF-65 then?

Cheers!
Glenn//.

Let us know how the bridge dr is working for you...guild x 12 rock.........Steffan

wileypickett said:

I'll be down there again within a couple weeks and will take some photos then.

Any areas in particular you'd like me to focus on?

BTW, I don't think it has the extra line in the binding you mentioned -- so not the body of a JF-65 then?

Cheers!
Glenn

Click to expand...

Hello Glenn,

Re-read my earlier comments. That will make it clear what you should look for!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

Hello Hans,

Here are photos of the mystery Guild. (Best I can do with the camera I have.)

Note: I took off the truss rod cover before shooting to show that it had the double truss rod, i.e.; was definitely a 12-string neck.

Also, I play my 12-string guitars as 10-strings. I use heavy gauge single B and E strings on top, rather than light gauge unison strings. (I.e.; The missing strings are intentional.)

The serial number is 207027.

Thanks
Glenn//.

http://people.bu.edu/nsmith/guildforhans1.jpg
http://people.bu.edu/nsmith/guildforhans2.jpg
http://people.bu.edu/nsmith/guildforhans3.jpg
http://people.bu.edu/nsmith/guildforhans4.jpg
http://people.bu.edu/nsmith/guildforhans5.jpg
http://people.bu.edu/nsmith/guildforhans7.jpg
http://people.bu.edu/nsmith/guildforhans8.jpg
http://people.bu.edu/nsmith/guildforhans9.jpg

Is the back rosewood or mahogany?
Looks like it could be mahogany to me.