Guild the underdog - why?

silverfox103

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Ridgemont said:
When they first started, they were selling their guitars dirt cheap relative to the higher priced Martins and Gibsons. For those who could not afford a Martin or Gibson (which already had a name and reputation) they bought a Guild. The owner of a local Guild shop here always talks about getting his first guitar (an F30) for $100. Even as time went on, Martin and Gibson were able to maintain their status as premier makers, while Guild maintained their status as the inexpensive alternative.
Very true, 1n 1982 I really wanted a Martin N20 classical guitar. It was around $2300, out of the budget for a young guy with with a wife and child and another one on the way. But I could swing a Mark V for $800.

Frosty said:
I've mentioned this before, and Tom might know this, but a music shop in NH (now closed in defeat by the economy) carried Guild, Martin, Santa Cruz and Taylor guitars. Whenever I would visit, the shopkeeper would find something to put in my hands - "you've got to hear this guitar!" On one visit, it was a new Tacoma D-50. I thought it sounded OK for my style, but then he handed to someone who knows how to play bluegrass with a flatpick. The sound was crisp, clean, loud - everything you might want in a bluegrass band. The guitar had been in the shop for several months and, according the shop keeper, "if it said 'Martin' on the headstock, it would have been sold the day it arrived".
I'm not real familiar with them, but I'm guessing your talking about the shop in Manchester that was put under because of Guitar Center and Daddy's Junky Music. I believe there was an article in the Union Leader recently telling his story.

Tom C.
 

Frosty

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silverfox103 said:
I'm not real familiar with them, but I'm guessing your talking about the shop in Manchester

Apologies for being vague.

Acoustic Outfitters in Stratham. One of my favorite shops of all time. I bought a new Tacoma D-55, a few banjos, an old Gibson or two and a fiddle from them. Great folks, great service, great inventory, competitive prices. Things were booming until the recession made us all focus on paying rent and feeding our families... music had to wait.
 

jte

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Ah, the Guild conundrum... I managed a guitar store for 11 years ('77-'88) and we were franchised dealers for Guild, Fender, Gibson, Ovation, Takamine, Martin, etc. My experiences lead me to a couple of main reasons Guild is "the underdog". First, the company has never had good marketing except for the tail end of the '90s and very early '00s (under FMIC of all things). The advertising always seemed out of date and amateurish, no matter the era. Eric Clapton with his Cream-era Bob Dylan do playing acoustic- no one cared about Clapton's acoustic playing in those days. They couldn't even really capitalize on John Denver's very prominent use of Guilds. Minimal investment in advertising, and having endorsements that always seemed off hurt them. Graham Parker and the Rumor, K. K. Downing holding an X-79 in a fake "rock-star" pose. The '68 catalog seemed to have the biggest stars they'd had since Johnny Smith almost 10 years earlier with Tommy Smothers, Richie Havens, George Benson, and the classic Clapton shot. But after that none of the catalogs nor ads ever showed respected endorsers until the Jaco Pastorious ad for the Pilot bass, and that was well after Jaco's unfortunate descent into bi-polar had tarnished his reputation.

FMIC's push got some decent endorsers, and a lot of publicity. They bought ads in guitar magazines, they pushed the company's legacy, and they encouraged dealers to actually stock the products. I suspect they over-pushed dealers because locally every Fender dealer became a Guild dealer, and had a LOT of stuff on the wall. The store in town at one time had two F-412, a couple of D-40 and D-50s, F-50, F-50R, at least three F-47, three SF-4, two SF-3, and two X-175 and an X-500. That's a LOT of inventory for this market area, and it's a lot of stuff that's not going to turn quickly. And the two dealers within 40 miles had similar levels of stock.

Now here's the other thing about Guild. Most people don't walk into a store wanting a Guild guitar. They come in wanting a Martin, Taylor, or Gibson. The store has to work to sell a Guild- you have to take time to present it to the customer correctly, you have to spend time with the customer discussing their preferences and encouraging them to look beyond the name. And that's just not what guitar stores do any more. Especially Fender dealers- face it, most people walk in looking for a Strat, or a Tele, or a Jazz Bass. And so all the sales person needs to do is figure out how much money they can extract from the transaction and steer the customer to the right price range. If that same sales drone who's built a method of getting sales by taking orders instead of actually SELLING has a customer come in looking for a Taylor because they've just watched the Academy of Country Music show and saw Taylor Swift et. al., they aren't going to try to make a connection for that customer to a Guild. The sales staff is going to take the customer right to the Taylors.

And a lot of dealers got burned by the large influx of Guilds FMIC promoted. They bought a bunch of guitars that took more work to sell, and they had dead inventory. So they had to blow them out, and that's bad. Sure the folks who bought them were happy, but the dealer isnt' going to restock them because they didn't make money off of them.

Add in the stupidity of the guitar rumor mill that doesn't know squat about Guild- the stories that "Fender ruined them", that the production has been moved three times in ten years, etc. It's a hard sell. And given the Wal-Mart business model that the music industry has descended into, it's not likely that they'll ever be a big player again. FMIC still respects the line, but they've got to be careful how they market them in order to continue the legacy.

John
 

Scratch

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ca35 said:
Re;
The reality with most products is that a majority of consumers don't buy based solely upon quality or value but instead buy status or a perceived lifestyle or to be part of a larger group.
What Tjmangum said is spot on. Don't confuse people with the facts. Perception becomes reality. People are brainwashed by the onslaught of advertising and then led to the slaughterhouse. That social pressure to fit in leads many to buy things they don't know the first thing about and are too lazy mentally to have a thought of their own and actually compare one item against another. Thank somebody for these people because it leaves the Guilds to us. It will never change and will probably sway even greater for those other guys as time goes on.
It's funny when you mention you play guitar someone will always ask "What kind?" Then I put a big 'ol southern grin on my face and say with pride a Guild. Buzz kill. The dumb look on their faces is priceless. However the feeling I get when I say Guild and somebody lights up and says what type and how old.............makes it all worth it.

Who knows what would of happened if Al had been a train enthusiast instead of a pilot.

I considered playing guitar an interesting part time hobby in the late 60s and recall being impressed with the beauty of 12 string guitars. I knew that Guild held the esteemed 12 string leadership position in those days and thus my off and on desire for more than 30 years to own one. I wasn't let down when many years later I finally realized my dream to replace the old Epiphone 12er with a JF-30. It immediately awoke the yearning to once again play after so many years of merely dusting the cases that lived under the bed.

I'm in alliance with TGM and ca35. Marketing is a science; market share and profit are matters of appealing to the masses. Although I've owned Martins and Taylors in the past, I've never been one to jump on bandwagons just because so and so plays one or to satisfy a need to impress the boys. Heck, I can't play well enough to do that anyway; regardless of brand... I know enough to decide what sounds good; popular opinion simply doesn't matter to me.

Is there a strong Guild brand loyalty? In the four plus years I've been hanging around LTG, I've witnessed the membership growth here and I'm convinced there's no more loyal group than this band of Guild brothers and sisters...
 

MojoTooth

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i always thought it was lack of big name players who played soley a Guild that lead to Guild being the lesser known or underdog brand. I think this is especially true with Guild electrics
 

steamfurnace

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Buddy Guy not withstanding, I bought my Starfire IV after trying at least a dozen ES 335's.
The build quality and playability was better in the Guild than any of the ES's. The store carried both Gibson and Guild at the time, but their on-staff luthier/repairman suggested I try the Guild after voicing my disappointment in the Gibsons. It was, not, however, a big box store, and has sadly since closed in that location :(
 

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Great discussion and one that seems to rear its' head every once in a while.

Whenever this topic comes up, Fender appears to take some flak for,well, for being Fender. Which I imagine is the image of the mega instrument corporation that when its' in the mood, absorbs
little guitar companies.

The reality is that for those of you who enjoy brand-spanking new Guilds (my newest one is a teenager at seventeen...) that without Fender buying Guild in '95, we'd be discussing it as an Orphan Brand, like the dozens of respected guitar companies that have gone out of business in the last fifty years.

As far as Guild Marketing goes here's a great example. A week ago, Fab467 posted a reply that displayed His new avatar, a photograph of what appeared to be a very stylishly dressed young couple, in formal-evening attire, holding solid-bodied Guild electrics and beaming at the camera.

I PMed Him complimenting Him on a great shot and asked if it was Him and His Best Gal getting ready to do their set at the Senior Prom, circa 1966?

He said, no, it was the cover of the 1967 Guild Guitar Catalog.
That kind of says it all. You scratch your head and wonder what the Guys in Marketing did all day back then?

David
 

Emilio

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So why isn't Guild getting in to endorsement like all of the other brands?
The have the product, the large owner and the history to back it up.
They have done it before so why not again?
bild-68.jpg
 

davismanLV

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@ Emilio, if they did everything "right" then we wouldn't have this great discussion. If there has to be an "underdog", I can't think of a better one than Guild. We get to be what WE are, because of what THEY are....
Tom in Vegas
 

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I agree with what the first and the last answers say.

Yes Steffan, growing up watching my guitar heroes, I didn't even know there was any worthy guitar brand aside from Fender and Gibson, so my first kid's reaction was to look for copies of these brands, just to get a little closer to my heroes. The thought that there may have been other brands worth looking into didn't even cross my mind: My heroes weren't playing on them.

And yes Tom, this situation allows us the privilege today, to purchase guitars around the $1000.00 mark, that kick Fender and Gibson's @#%$ every day of the week! :wink:
 

littlesongs

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Emilio said:
So why isn't Guild getting in to endorsement like all of the other brands?

Because rock stars like Keith Richards, Brendan Benson, Daniel Rossen, Kim Thayil and Corin Tucker all play killer guitars that Guild hasn't made in years.

This is not unusual. Many LTG'ers have everyday players and gigging axes that are long out of production. My Guilds are awesome, but they were dropped from the catalog decades ago.

So, let's pretend that Walter or Thunderface or Qvart or Billy or Dane or Drka or even I have some sort of huge success and lots of exposure. We would all be proudly flying the Guild flag with out of production guitars.

Marketing is not the only problem, nor is it the biggest. Musicians can't help you sell things that ain't on the menu.
 

CA-35

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Re;
That kind of says it all. You scratch your head and wonder what the Guys in Marketing did all day back then?

Well the guys in marketing at the advertising agency just cashed fat checks from Guild, and the creative dept or who ever was approving the marketing campaign back at Guild were to busy playing THE BEST GUITARS in the world before they were shipped out to the dealers!!!!
 

littlesongs

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bluesypicky said:
This situation allows us the privilege today, to purchase guitars around the $1000.00 mark, that kick Fender and Gibson's @#%$ every day of the week! :wink:
+1,000
 

capnjuan

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Dadaist said:
Great discussion and one that seems to rear its' head every once in a while ... That kind of says it all. You scratch your head and wonder what the Guys in Marketing did all day back then?
Yes; it's the collective convulsion ... or maybe compulsion ... about every 3 - 5 months or so: 'where did Guild go wrong?' ... 'what can Guild do now?' ... 'why don't I get more chicks?'

Fender made fine amps and guitars but it was their marketing department that made them popular. The unmistakable message in Fifty Years of Fender was the great success of their marketing department.

Gibson made guitars and their marketing department made people want to own them; setting aside their bread and butter jazzboxes and archies; the LP, SG, ES335 ... and not to mention their ES125/ES175 and twin pickup variants and the Firebirds, Explorers ... these are 50-60 year old designs. In terms of volume ... Guild couldn't give it away on 7th Avenue :( As a former business partner would have put it: "Guild couldn't sell band candy". :p

With all due respect to Mr. Dronge, just because you made a good guitar didn't mean the world would beat a path to your door - that's only true of mousetraps. Agree, they are fine instruments and when it comes to the <ahem> previously-owned guitars, it's just as well they're no more popular than they are.
 

Emilio

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Ross said:
Is that you in the photo, Emilio? :D

i wish!
If i ever get that starquality i'd be a happy man.
And if i ever get that 12-string i'd be a happy man.

davismanLV said:
@ Emilio, if they did everything "right" then we wouldn't have this great discussion. If there has to be an "underdog", I can't think of a better one than Guild. We get to be what WE are, because of what THEY are....
Tom in Vegas

Don't get me wrong (i'm not out to get a harsh conversation here) sometimes it's way more fun to root for the underdog. I'll rather be the rebel than the crowd. But it's sad to
see a fantastic product being overlooked.
A part from all the budget offers and some of the custom builders (collings, Gallagher, Sandén etc) it's all about taylor, martin etc. here in my home country.
I just find it quite sad.
 

idealassets

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I'll never forget the first time I appeared on stage with my F50r and sound checked it. The crowd reaction was priceless. I saw a sudden turn of heads, ad whispers of "hey look at that he's got a Guild!". -As though it was the darnest thing to happenin a long long time. Afterwords I received a lot of handshakes and compliments for the guitar sound, and stage presence.

How about a comparison? Harley Davidson doesn't really have to try to sell their motorcylces. And most everything on the road today is a Gold Wing, etc. Harley is a long lead item to order one, but those select few owners are willing to do what it takes to ride one. Meanwhile Indian Motorcycles went out of busines around 1953. But the current owners are very fanatical about owning them to this very day. Even a new generation of owners that want an antique.

So back to guitars, it is what it is. I like most all Guild guitars. But the first model that I bought (new) was a 12 string F512. With 12 strings they are actually still no. 1. However its mostly a secret to most everyone.

Craig
 

adorshki

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davismanLV said:
A single driving force with marketing and promotion... has been lacking for some time.
Here's just ONE example. Go to the Guitar Center website. Regardless of how you may feel about Guitar Center, it's one of the largest, if not THE largest purveyor of guitars in the USA. There is no Guild presence there at all..You can't BUY a Guild, or TRY a Guild, if it's not there to buy or compare..
True enough, BUT: Lots of chains dropped out due to uncertainty about availability during the Coroan/Tacoma period. The other side of this coin has been discussed recently, particularly after the first "Let's Meet Guild" tour. Guild's position right now is to focus on quality NOT quantity and that still puts Guitar Center out of the picture. They thought long and hard about who were actually going to be authorized dealers for the New Hartford launch. In fact personally I see them trying to return to the original theme of building enough instruments for discerning players, to justify staying in business. There's been some discussion about whether Guild is truly/can be/should be a "boutique brand". I think they SHOULD, and are close to achieving recognition as a "bargain boutique" brand now. And I think that's exactly where they need to, and should be.
davismanLV said:
Taylor, Martin, Gibson all put their product out there in the hands of popular artists. Guild does not.
Been brought up before too. When I was first checking 'em out, what turned me on was that they were being played by people who PAID for 'em when they could afford anything they wanted. They're not trying to make a million guitars to sell to kids who just wanna play what their idol plays, this year anyway.
davismanLV said:
Personally, I'd like to see Guild gain a bit more of the market share. These are just some of my thoughts on the subject. I could be wrong. :cool:
Tom in Vegas
Back to the "quality not quantity" theme, there's certainly no guitars hanging around waiting for orders in New Hartford. They're selling everything they make. We hear lots of stories about people having to order instruments. Virtually 100% of those folks are delighted with the instrument they get. I can only think of two examples here, one was an instrument with truly unacceptable finish flaws and THAT was a dealer's warranty replacement so it STILL might not have been an actual brand new instrument, the other was Twocorgis who said he just didn't bond with his brand new D40, that maybe the Adirondack top was a little tight and was going to need longer to open up than he had patience for. Again, I see it as a return to the real roots in the late '50s early '60's, when ordering a Guild was no big deal because you pretty much KNEW it was gonna be a great instrument.
Guild's target buyer is smart enough to seek out a REAL music store and play the display model and decide whether he/she wants it RIGHT now or wants to order a virgin piece fresh from New Hartford, and understands the value in the instruments and therefore understands the price.
Not trying to be snide, but why should Guild put guitars on a wall next to a bunch of other heavily discounted "name brands" when the typical buyer in that kind of store is motivated by price over any other factor?
I used to sell Dodge when the Viper was introduced. VERY FEW of the people who wanted to test drive the car in the car were capable of driving it to its limits, although a few of them were capable of paying for its exclusivity. THOSE folks got to test drive 'em.
See what I'm getting at? :wink:
 

bluesypicky

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adorshki said:
See what I'm getting at? :wink:
No, but I love you. :lol:
Are you saying that folks wanting to buy a brand new Guild today do so by snobism (because they can afford it) and not because they are real "players" giving these guitars the edge in sound and feel?
 

adorshki

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idealassets said:
I'll never forget the first time I appeared on stage with my F50r and sound checked it. The crowd reaction was priceless. I saw a sudden turn of heads, ad whispers of "hey look at that he's got a Guild!". -As though it was the darnest thing to happenin a long long time. Afterwords I received a lot of handshakes and compliments for the guitar sound, and stage presence.
Now I gotta admit I LOVE that kind of "insider" ego trip! You can ONLY get it with the "underdog". Same thing happens with first-gen RX-7 owners. :D
idealassets said:
How about a comparison? Harley Davidson doesn't really have to try to sell their motorcylces. And most everything on the road today is a Gold Wing, etc. Harley is a long lead item to order one, but those select few owners are willing to do what it takes to ride one. Meanwhile Indian Motorcycles went out of busines around 1953. But the current owners are very fanatical about owning them to this very day. Even a new generation of owners that want an antique.
In fact Indian's still in business, but yes, went through several changes and acquisitions. They were built here in California about 50 miles south of here from around '99-'03, still using the philosphy of quality over quantity. The point being, a brand can change and evolve but to be successful and survive, needs to revisit its roots, what made it successful in the first place.
I see they're manufacturing in N. Carolina now.
Gosh this story sounds kind of familiar.... :lol:
 
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