Starfire bass

mikko

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saemola said:
I've heard that when it comes to flats a lot of people have a high opinion of Pyramids (but then who would talk s**t about a set you've spent 70$ on? :mrgreen: ), Thomastik, D'Addario (not a big fan of the latter brand overall).

what's your experience?

I´m using Pyramid flats on my DeArmond Starfire. They´re very good but for some reason I´m not 100% happy with them. Their customer service is worth mentioning though. Their standard short scale set is little too short for Starfire, but they were more than happy to make me a special set designed for Starfire. And you can choose gauge for every string separately if you like. I even chose the color of the silk. They´re quite pricey but less than $70 anyway, even the custom made set. If my memory serves me right, it was about €45 including shipping from Germany to Finland.
I´m using TI flats on my J-bass. If you like thick strings with high tension, these are not for you. They´re relatively thin and very low tension, kind of rubber band feel. Sound is great, quality is great. I like them a lot. They´re quite pricey but should last a long time.
I´m using LaBella DTF´s on my Rickenbacker 4003. They´re just great strings! My personal favorite. I´m using 045/065/085/105 (760FS) set and I would say that will fold your Starfire in half. They´re almost as high tension as Rotosound Jazz 77 flats and .110 (James Jamerson) set is even worse. I don´t know if there´s short scale sets available from LaBella. I wish there would because some lighter gauge set of them could be nice for Starfire(?)

That´s just my observation, don´t take it as a rule. You just need to spend some money and try different strings to find your sound. Trust on your own ears more than anything else. Good advises can make the search easier though so it´s always worth asking too.

edit: I forgot to mention that some people say good things about inexpensive Fender flats. Probably worth trying.
 

saemola

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thanks for the analysis.
I havea thought though:
I think people often mistake the feel they get from the string with its actual tension.
I am saying this because, as I wrote a couple of posts ago, the formula for the calculation of the string tension is:

T=(4*UW *L*F)/386.4

T=tension (our X)
UW=unight weight (related to the material the string is made of and the thickness of the string)
L=scale length (meaning the instrument scale length)
F=frequency (the pitch to witch the string is tuned)


what it means, in the real world, is:
mounting strings from different brands with the same gauge, made out of the same material, tuned to the same pitch, on the same bass, the resulting tension is going to be just the same

the tension specified on the back of strings package is the tension that string would have if tuned to that pitch on an instrument of the indicated scale.
that's because strings don't have an "intrinsic" tension.


now, this should have been the premises, but:
1- I'm not a mathematician, a physician, an engineer or whatever... these are just observations I made and that sound pretty logical to me
2- hope everything was clear, English is not my language.

I'd love to hear other people's opinions on the topic (maybe someone who actually knows what he's talking about, unlike me? :mrgreen: )
 

fronobulax

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I has a set of RotoSounds on the Starfire for many, many years. I liked them. Recently an LTG member send me some D'Adarrio flats that are on the SF and I'm pretty happy. I'll post the package info eventually.

I am enough of a mathematician to understand what "tension" means but I am a lousy bassist and have no idea what would feel or play different if the only thing that changed was "tension". Tell me how it effects your playing and maybe I can help with an opinion.

I hope the pictures arrive soon.
 

Yggdrasil

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saemola said:
jeez, I'm waiting for this pictures like a kids waitin on Santa.
I was wondering something serious though: what kind of strings do you guys use?
never used flats before, but that's definitely what I'm going for.

I like TI jazz flats.

I also like d'Addario Chrome Flats, but in 2005 I ordered some in "short scale" - and they did not fit any of my short scale basses (at that time Starfire, Alembic & Gretsch Broadkaster). They were my preferred string on my Jack Casady long scales, though -had a great gritty growl mixed in with the flat thump.

Pyramid short scale, when I looked into them, also were too short for a Starfire, being designed for a Hofner.
Pyramid long scale was the only string I ever had that had windings unravel right away. Likely an anomaly, tho - possibly user error.

My 67 came to me strung with Fender flats - didn't leave them on long, but I wouldn't rule them out.

Note that these comments are from tests I did with the products as they were about 5 years ago.
 

mgod

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In my geezerly experience short scale really needs a different approach than long scale. But I've accumulated some luxury in that regard over the years. I optimize whatever I have for its specific purpose. A string that works well on a long scale like a Fender or Rick will almost certainly play bad on a short bass.

A couple years ago I got a call from Klaus Voorman (yes, I really am THAT cool) from Der Vaterland asking to borrow a bass for a session here in LA. I lent him a 59 P with some flats - I'm not sure exactly but I think they're something Dan Lakin sent, the Joe Osborne flats. Don't know who makes them, but I use the bass like this. As Klaus was heading back to LAX he called to say thanks, and then complained that the strings were too light (65-105). So I bought a set of LaBellas and keep it in the case, just in case he shows up again. BTW, his P still has the same set of LaBellas he put on in 1969. I played it - its a tough one to play, but that toughness is part of his sound.

I really can't imagine putting those heavy strings on a Starfire. I use T-Is wherever I can get away with a string that flexible. I have them on a long scale Alembic and on a 61 Rick 4000.
 

saemola

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well, what I mean for tension is basically how hard the string is to fret.
the higher the tention, the higher the force required to fret the string on the fretboard.
also, the higher the tention, the more you can "dig in", avoiding that annoying "thrash" noise (uhm, maybe this wasn't as clear...)

I'm not gonna approach a hollow body like a solid body bass, I'm not gonna dig in violent rock lines, but generally, I just like to have a higher tension for the tight feel I was talkin about.
I just like that tight feel under my hands (same reason why I play a Mike Lull V4, which is basically a Jazz with a Precision neck).

although I do appreciate the opinion of you experienced hollowbodiers :mrgreen:, so I guess I'm gonna try this different approach, experiment with a couple different string sets, and see how it turns out.

P.S. no pics yet... sigh... didn't want to call the guy on thanksgiving, but tomorrow I will.
 

mikko

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saemola said:
the higher the tention, the more you can "dig in", avoiding that annoying "thrash" noise

Using the flatwound strings help you to get rid of the unwanted fret noises.
 

saemola

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I know but it's not "really" what I'm talking about.
but anyway, as I said, I'm not gonna dig that hard on this bass.
it's just a matter of tight feel I like. :mrgreen:

P.S. this might grab someone's attention.
 

saemola

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ok so the guy wrote me back and said that he's about to take pics ecc...
and:

I found the tag inside one of the F holes but it was written in ink and some of the letters and numbers are not distinguishable any more. This is what I could read. Model # SF BAS and then the rest of it is blurred.
Serial # 909 and then it looks like it say's615 but I cant tell for sure.p


I couldn't find any serial number that goes even close to that here
do you guys think it's a scam?

he also said he's never sold anything long distance (just like me in the US) and doesn't know how to work this out.
what do you guys usually do (besides Paypal which doesn't really look he is familiar with)?
 

fronobulax

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The M-85 noted above is also discussed here. Personally I am concerned that the same bass allegedly sold for $3,150 on eBay and then shows up on CL for $1,200.

mgod said:
(yes, I really am THAT cool)
We know and appreciate the insights of a "kid from New Jersey" who likes Guilds.

I usually use this for dating info. A pre-'70 SF will have a serial number of the form BA-xxx or BA-xxxx. A later one would have a five or six digit numeric serial. A later one may have Guild Humbuckers rather than Hagstrom Bisonics. For some people the difference is huge and effects the value significantly.

I don't recall the reissue serial numbers but they are also numeric, I believe. The only way I know how quickly tell the reissue from a vintage with humbuckers is the reissue has metal saddles that travel on screws whereas the vintage has wooden saddles that travel in a slot, as discussed above.

The serial number should also be impressed on the back of the headstock. I would certainly ask the seller if it is legible and if using information from the headstock and the label he can reconstruct the serial.

Ignoring the general condition, I would want to see pictures of the PUs, the controls and the bridge so I had some idea just what I was getting in terms of the general era.

I recognize there is a lot of paranoia involved in online transactions. The last one I did, the seller wanted a cashier's check. Luckily they also provided enough personal information that was verifiable that I was willing to take the risk and let them have the money before they shipped the bass. Paypal or credit card provide some protection against fraud although not all sellers can or will accept those. There are escrow services available although I have never used one and that will increase someone's costs. If you are willing to trust someone who posts on LTG there have been several cases where a LTG contributor was geographically close enough to a seller to broker the deal in person. But the bottom line is that you are either going to have to travel to the seller or trust someone.
 

fretless

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samaeola. hi. i'm the guy with the overpriced fretless on e bay. re: bridge saddles, if you get your starfire and still need a saddle or two, i had new ones made for mine, and i think there might be two survivors from the original four in the case. let me know if you need them, and i'll check. they should be the real deal from '71 as far as i know. also... love labellas, but the Daddario chromes have a nice bit of texture to them and thump away on my harmony. take care and good luck on your starfire
 

fretless

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saemola. on the serial/model numbers. on my "71 the model # visible through the f-hole is SF Bass II CH. in terms of info you're just missing an s a II if it has 2 pickups and the finish CH for cherry in my case. 60931 serial number seems to put mine squarely in '71, and i think it's legible on my ebay listing if you wanted to see what it looks like. you probably already have this info, but just in case...
 

saemola

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thanks for the tips fretless, and I will keep the saddle thing in mind.
btw, this was the image from the cragislist post, but I don't think it's gonna tell a lot.

3ka3mf3o95o05t55u2ab6a8.jpg
 

fretless

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imo. definitely a starfire II, those look like humbuckers to me. the bi sonics usually were black pickups with chrome rings. looks like it might be missing a knob, but it looks like the bass boost, master volume and everything else is there.1970 or later with the humbuckers. which sound great. you won't be disappointed if you haven't heard the hagstroms, and you can always get some darkstars later. google vintage guitars and search for guild starfire bass. it has original catalog info and will probably tell you what wood was used for that finish as well
 

saemola

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wow, so much from such a little pic. :mrgreen:
so dose aren't Bisonics you think?
is there a way to know by the pics I can ask him to take?
 

fretless

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serial # would give you the biggest clue, and it should be on the back of the headstock. that way you could find the year, and guild swithed to humbuckers in1970, as well as changing the bass boost from a push button to a very small toggle switch. so... if there's a tiny toggle (it's just there sort of right above the regular volume knobs) then it should be 70 or later. i think they switched to a larger headstock that year, and guild headstocks are the coolest. as far as looking at the pickups, even dark stars are made to resemble the original (black surrounded by chrome) i've looked at so many pictures hoping mine could have hagstroms, and the guild humbuckers were always chrome with black rings. sorry. i wanted them to be bi sonics too. definitely a hagstrom bridge imo.
 

saemola

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errata corrige: the serial on the headstock is 90960.
looks like it's a '73 according to the Guild chart.
 

fronobulax

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saemola said:

Starfire II with Guild humbuckers. Looks to be a factory SF II as opposed to a conversion just because of the master volume and tone switch. Tone switch, BTW was introduced in min-1967. Finish could be original or a refinish. I'd need to see label or closer pictures to have a firm opinion. Saddles look dark so are probably wood which confirms the '70's date rather than a reissue.

1967 SF II - note tone switch is a push button and not in the same place. PUs are Hagstroms.

BA-1472.jpg


1967 SF I - note bridge shape is different, no tone switch and finish which I believe is original.
BA-1062.jpg


@fretless - Welcome. Since I probably used the word overpriced in reference to your bass please understand that is my opinion and based, in part, because a fretless is worthless to me. Clearly if mgod can get $3,500 I do not know all there is about the market.
 
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