High prices of the new Guilds; maybe should shop around.

guildzilla

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Hi, Dennis, and best luck with this shopping decision. I should point out that West and I share the same bias about the Westerly Guilds, and the test of time and all that. But, if you're looking for a new guitar, well, you won't likely find a Westerly.

Certainly you should shop around if you're contemplating a $2,000-plus purchase. That way, if you circle back and buy either the F-30R or the F-40, you'll know that was the best choice available.

If you were impressed with those models in the store, it's possible that the $2,000 price tag is a better-than-reasonable price from a dealer.

At least compared (if the guitars are exactly the same) to these e-Bay listings:

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Guild-GSR-F40-S ... ?pt=Guitar

http://cgi.ebay.com/GUILD-GSR-F-30-BEAR ... ?pt=Guitar
 

Taylor Martin Guild

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West, you have a very valid point there.
As with most guitar makers, the older the instrument, the sweeter the sound.
There is magic in a guitar that is aged and opened up.
I just hope that time will be on the side of by 2005 D-55 and it will sound as good as a 1985 D-55 does now.
Guild has suffered in the image department with all the moves it has made over the years.
The longevity that Guild had in Westerly has helped it's image there for sure.
All other Guilds are measured against Westerly built Guilds and that's a fact.

I wish that Guild would have never marketed their seconds.
That was a mistake in my opinion.
 

West R Lee

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Sorry if I sounded a little defensive of Westerly.....but I am. Now if I were going to buy a brand new guitar.........it would probably be a Guild.....from N.H. :wink: . And you're so right TMG, destroying seconds is far and away the best policy.....but even Westerly sold some.

Just out of curiosity.......does anyone know if Martin, Gibson or Taylor sell seconds....or blems? The policy of selling seconds is a no-brainer......recoup what you can while not bearing any future liability on them. On the one hand it makes perfect business sense, unless your goal is the integrity of the brand.

West
 

yettoblaster

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valleyguy said:
...

I go to McCabes Guitar store in Santa Monica every now and then just to spend time playing their assorted guitars. They have two rooms, a small high-end room and a larger mid-range room. The Guilds always used to be in the mid-range room. Last I was there the D50 and D40 they had was now hanging in the high end room with the Collings, Martins, Goodalls and Taylors. And, I must say they more than held their own...

I think this is an excellent indicator. I agree (if the NH-made are anything like my Tacoma-built D40) that the new "open" sounding Guilds are on a par with the high end guitars, and think that makes them a "value" still. The problem is Larrivee, which also is in that league, but priced lower (helped in part by a favorable US/Canada exchange rate). Fender is in a good position to throw its advertising weight behind the Guild "tradition."

Because of CNC machines offering consistency in build quality (if you don't totally piss off the workers and their contributions, and ability to sink your momentum if they're not treated right), I think the new Guilds are positioned about right at the present time. They need more than Ritchie Havens though. Some master players chosing Guilds in fields like Bluegrass or Country could well get them back on the map. Bonnie Raitt and her 12 string is an asset too if they could get her on board (more). And Buddy Guy should go back to a Starfire too, huh? Fender's already got him in their pocket. :wink:
 

Ridgemont

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I agree that advertising and celebrity endorsements is what Guild needs to get back in the game. But it needs new blood. Richie Havens is a very talented musician and a legend in his own right, but he is not going to appeal to my demographic or those of the next generation. Look at any band that embraces an acoustic on stage and chances are it will be a Martin, Taylor, or a Gibson. I have always enjoyed the music of Beck, John Mayer, and Ben Harper and they all have signature Martins. Jason Mraz has a signature Taylor. These are just a few artists that appeal to younger generations trying to start a band in their garage. I was happy to see a Dandy Warhols video where they were playing a 12er, but more is needed. Chris Martin from Coldplay played a beat up Guild jumbo a while ago for a TV benefit.
 

West R Lee

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Ridgemont said:
I agree that advertising and celebrity endorsements is what Guild needs to get back in the game. But it needs new blood. Richie Havens is a very talented musician and a legend in his own right, but he is not going to appeal to my demographic or those of the next generation. Look at any band that embraces an acoustic on stage and chances are it will be a Martin, Taylor, or a Gibson. I have always enjoyed the music of Beck, John Mayer, and Ben Harper and they all have signature Martins. Jason Mraz has a signature Taylor. These are just a few artists that appeal to younger generations trying to start a band in their garage. I was happy to see a Dandy Warhols video where they were playing a 12er, but more is needed. Chris Martin from Coldplay played a beat up Guild jumbo a while ago for a TV benefit.

Oh definately.........they need these guys and girls that play CMT, heck all of them play Taylors though :wink: . Seriously, it seems like they all play Taylor.....with the occasional Martin or Gibson. To me (Be it a Gibson), if this doesn't make you want to run out and buy a J45, nothing will!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPG1n1B0Ydw&feature=av2e

West
 

Ridgemont

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No you are right about Taylors. I was watching the Country Music Awards a few months ago and every performance was with Taylors. All of them. Something just ain't right is you don't see a Martin on stage at a country music show.
 

bluesypicky

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Ridgemont said:
I agree that advertising and celebrity endorsements is what Guild needs to get back in the game.
I will even go one step further by saying this is what has always kept Guild behind the other big 2 or 3: exposure.
All of us here playing electric Guilds, know that Gibson never had anything on Guild's sound and manufacturing quality. They just never had any big time stars regularly playing them on stage.
Heck, why do you think I had to wait for 30+ years to discover Guild guitars?
Aside from the fact that the distributing network was very thin at best where I grew up, 99.9% of my inspirational heroes, the ones that made me pick up a guitar in the first place, were playing Gibson or Fender.
But I know it's an old story..... :roll:
 

fronobulax

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@ Dennis - you didn't really stir up a hornet's nest. It's always there under the surface. The only thing you did that I wondered about was starting the thread based upon GSR which is by definition rare, expensive and exclusive.

@ West - So what you seem to be saying is that you can't even compare a 34 year old guitar to a new one. By that logic it would seem that you never should compare a NH to Westerly because there will always be at least a 5 year difference in age. By the same token, if that kind of comparison doesn't make sense then you can't compare Hoboken and Westerly either. That logic doesn't lead me to anywhere useful but it does raise a question - at what age does a guitar stop changing? If the age is X then comparing two guitars that are X or older should be a lot closer to a fair comparison than comparing a guitar younger than X with just about anything. Is there a value of X that would be true for (say) 80% of the acoustic guitars sold in the USA or does the question just lead off into the realm of the intangible and unmeasurable? If there is an X then it will tell us when we can start to compare NH and Westerly because the former will have matured and the latter will have stopped changing.

I'll also note, in a time of instant gratification, if I can A/B two guitars then I am going to buy the one that sounds the best Today and not the one that might sound better when they have both aged 5 years. If it is really true that guitars get better with age then if two instruments were of comparable quality when they were created then I'm going to end up with the older one every time.
 

chazmo

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fronobulax said:
[ ... ]
I'll also note, in a time of instant gratification, if I can A/B two guitars then I am going to buy the one that sounds the best Today and not the one that might sound better when they have both aged 5 years. If it is really true that guitars get better with age then if two instruments were of comparable quality when they were created then I'm going to end up with the older one every time.
This is exactly the right advice. I have only heard *one* person actually complain about their guitar getting too loud and too rich over the years of ownership of a guitar. On the other hand, I have heard *many* people complain about buying a guitar that they'd hoped would "open up" over time but ended up just never bonding with it.

The answer to Dennis is that you should *always* shop around. I only buy guitars that speak to me (or, in the case of Guilds, shout at me). I've bought a few guitars remotely without the ability to play them, and I have not kept all of those. I have only parted with one guitar that I bought new after having the chance to play it in the store. That was a Taylor maple GS that was a marvelous guitar but had to go to make room for some old Guilds. ;)
 

West R Lee

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fronobulax said:
@ Dennis - you didn't really stir up a hornet's nest. It's always there under the surface. The only thing you did that I wondered about was starting the thread based upon GSR which is by definition rare, expensive and exclusive.

@ West - So what you seem to be saying is that you can't even compare a 34 year old guitar to a new one. By that logic it would seem that you never should compare a NH to Westerly because there will always be at least a 5 year difference in age. By the same token, if that kind of comparison doesn't make sense then you can't compare Hoboken and Westerly either. That logic doesn't lead me to anywhere useful but it does raise a question - at what age does a guitar stop changing? If the age is X then comparing two guitars that are X or older should be a lot closer to a fair comparison than comparing a guitar younger than X with just about anything. Is there a value of X that would be true for (say) 80% of the acoustic guitars sold in the USA or does the question just lead off into the realm of the intangible and unmeasurable? If there is an X then it will tell us when we can start to compare NH and Westerly because the former will have matured and the latter will have stopped changing.

I'll also note, in a time of instant gratification, if I can A/B two guitars then I am going to buy the one that sounds the best Today and not the one that might sound better when they have both aged 5 years. If it is really true that guitars get better with age then if two instruments were of comparable quality when they were created then I'm going to end up with the older one every time.

Oh you can draw all the comparison you like there Frono, and for the record, the youngest Westerly would be about 8 years older than the oldest New Hartford, not 5 years. :) You'll be hard pressed to find a Westerly 5 years older than a New Hartford.

Now let's go back to where this comparison was actually made, earlier in the thread in a post by a member here in speaking of New Hartford Guilds...............and I quote.

"The fit and the finish are excellent, which if we're totally honest with our Westerlys, wasn't the case."

Now you can agree with that statement all you want, in fact, he may have a bunch of old Westerly built Guilds with production flaws, but I don't. Furthermore, I take the statement to be an implication that New Hartford built Guilds are somehow superior to Westerlys, how can it be taken any other way? I will always maintain that there is no way that conclusion can be drawn, in fact, to imply it is truly rediculous. Why? Well I could go on for days on that subject, but let me just say that the comparison is not fair to either facility. How can you possibly compare a facilty that's been in production for 1 1/2 years to one that was in production for 34 years?

If you care to draw a comparison with individual guitars, I'm not sure how you would do that either. OK, let's compare a New Hartford D55 with a Westerly D55 (the fit and finish on mine is superb :wink: )....a model common to both facilities. They both look good, they both sound good, but the Westerly has been around for about 10 years. On the one hand, the Westerly has aged and has that advantage in tone, on the other hand, the New Hartford hasn't had the 10 year opportunity to prove it's longevity or improve it's tone. But to say one is better than the other is crazy, or that the "fit and finish" on a 10 year old, virtually flawless D55 is somehow inferior to that on a new D55 is baseless . We know beyond a shadow of a doubt the Westerly is a great guitar....time has proven it, but it remains to be seen for the New Hartford. That is the only head to head comparison I offer, and by the way, I've played several examples of both.

Now I'd love to get into a comparison of facilities, though I haven't been to either, I can read. I would cite the accomplishments at Westerly vs the accomplishments of Guild since Westerly....nuff said. Having said that, I do believe that some of the very best Guild guitars were built in Westerly AFTER Fender took over, so this is not an indictment of Fender's ability. I think they can accomplish whatever they put their minds to, or they can fail with a lack of mindset. Since Westerly, the record is not good. I sincerely hope that the greatest guitars in the world come out of New Hartford, and I hope New Hartford is cranking out beauties until long after I am gone. I hope they become the #1 producer of guitars worldwide, acoustic and electric. I hope they build guitars that become the standard by which all others are judged. :D But I'm still a tad on the skeptical side.

West
 

jgwoods

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Dennis M said:
I just played for the first time today, a new F-30R and a new F-40. These are from the new factory in Connecticut. I was impressed with both instruments. They are part of the new “GSR” series. The F-30R had some nice inlay, much like the F-50 and D-55.
Both guitars had a nice price tag to go with the glam and glitz. Around $2000 for each. Which caused me to wonder, if I am going to lay out that much for an acoustic guitar, then I am going to shop around a bit, before I just go with a Guild.
Which makes me ask, why do we love our Guilds? Is it because the old ones sound so good, and at the time, at a great price? I know that's why I purchased my first; it was much cheaper than what I really wanted, which was a D-28, but couldn't afford it. And yes, it did sound really good, and still does.

There is nothing like the sound of an old Guild D-35, or D-40 for that matter, and you can still get these babies for a few hundred dollars, just under a thousand in most cases. I love the trio, which includes a dusty old 1970s F-212, that sits in my house today. Got them for a good price, and, yes, they sound fantastic. I could go on and on, but my point here is . . .

The new ones are really pricey, up there with Bourgeois (sp?), Larivee, even some Martins, etc. Do we want these new models, pay the high prices just because they are Guilds, out of loyalty to the old name, or should we shop around for the guitar that really speaks to us.
If I am going to shell out that much money, then I will shop around, try different brands. That is how I chose my D-50 back in 1982. Had a budget, and tried about a dozen different models, and narrowed it down to the one I have today.

Just my humble opinion.

Dennis M

Going back to the OP, I agree, shop around and why not?
I have a few guitars. I don't want to add to the collection. I want a variety of guitars not 3 all alike, and I have some specific wants regarding bling, wood, size, shape, price, and country of origin.
I've probably owned 50 guitars and it comes down to this:
I'm keeping my Gibson J-185TV- maple, short scale, Jumbo deep body.
I'm Keeping my Redline RL-45 - Gibson J-50 clone you might call it- mahogany back and sides, deep body.
What I was shopping for when I bought the Guild GSR F40 was a rosewood jumbo, USA made, $2k- $2.5k - bigger than an OM preferably not a deep body, and I don't like Taylors.
What I came down to was the Martin M, or 0000 line, and the Guild I bought. The Martins were too much money.
Only Guild hit the target.

If you are shopping for a Dreadnought there is a lot more choice to make. I don't play them much anymore and find I can get all the sounds I want from the jumbo body, plus it is somewhat unique- you don't see them every day like dreads, or J-45s.
Having a Guild says a few things about you:
I'm cheap! (maybe)
I gave my purchase some thought and didn't just buy what everyone else buys. - ergo I know what I like/want.

There's a good number of guitars out there that are too much for me. I can pick a bit, finger pick a bit, and keep up in jams generally but mostly I am a strummer and having a Bourgeois, or Collings, High end Martin, Santa Cruz etc. would broadcast more than I can back up.
My Guild is just right - and I don't mind loaning it out to a stranger for a try.
It's a good match for me, and that's why I have it.
 

adorshki

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West R Lee said:
.. I do believe that some of the very best Guild guitars were built in Westerly AFTER Fender took over..West
I remember the first time I "saw" you say that..I knew my D25 was pretty special even for a Guild, and I felt so validated! :lol: I have to admit I suspect that WAS Guild's "golden age" even though I have no experience with a Tacoma or New Hartford. I stand by my hope that the New Hartfords will prove to be every bit as good if not better than those Westerlys (even though those open tuners are already a minus to me), because then I can relax knowing I can still buy a new Guild to raise that will be worth the effort.. :D
 

West R Lee

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adorshki said:
West R Lee said:
.. I do believe that some of the very best Guild guitars were built in Westerly AFTER Fender took over..West
I remember the first time I "saw" you say that..I knew my D25 was pretty special even for a Guild, and I felt so validated! :lol: I have to admit I suspect that WAS Guild's "golden age" even though I have no experience with a Tacoma or New Hartford. I stand by my hope that the New Hartfords will prove to be every bit as good if not better than those Westerlys (even though those open tuners are already a minus to me), because then I can relax knowing I can still buy a new Guild to raise that will be worth the effort.. :D

Well I'll tell ya what I base that on Al. One of the guys that worked for several years at Westerly has told me that when Fender took Guild over, they implemented a bunch of quality control that had not previously been in place at Westerly. And the couple of post Fender Westerlys I've got are just impeccable. Nothing wrong with my pre Fender Westerlys, but the later ones are just gorgeous.

West
 

adorshki

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West R Lee said:
Well I'll tell ya what I base that on Al. One of the guys that worked for several years at Westerly has told me that when Fender took Guild over, they implemented a bunch of quality control that had not previously been in place at Westerly.
Ah, I remember that too. A printout of that post is tucked into my copy of Hans' book. But nothing wrong with refreshing the group memory and making it a little easier to find for any guests who may be lurking about, as I used to do! :D
 

taabru45

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adorshki said:
West R Lee said:
.. I do believe that some of the very best Guild guitars were built in Westerly AFTER Fender took over..West
I remember the first time I "saw" you say that..I knew my D25 was pretty special even for a Guild, and I felt so validated! :lol: I have to admit I suspect that WAS Guild's "golden age" even though I have no experience with a Tacoma or New Hartford. I stand by my hope that the New Hartfords will prove to be every bit as good if not better than those Westerlys (even though those open tuners are already a minus to me), because then I can relax knowing I can still buy a new Guild to raise that will be worth the effort.. :D

Gotta tell you Al....I'm lovin' those open backs.....tuners Al, tuners :lol: :lol: The smaller heads on mine just feel great and not crowded...very smooth and accurate....a pleasure actually..... :D Steffan
 
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