High prices of the new Guilds; maybe should shop around.

GardMan

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jgwoods said:
I paid $300 for my Martin D28 in '70 and it came with a case so that's the same deal as your D50 for $265 +$35 for the case.
Given the resale value of the D28 I got the better deal.

Recently I paid $2350 for a GSR-F40 and thought it was a very good deal . The OP is saying around $2000 which would be a truly excellent deal on a $4400 list, $3349MAP guitar. Outstanding I think.

Many folks love their Guilds because the bought them used for short money. For the owner of one bought new for a fair price that is an issue as the lesser resale value of Guild vs Martin, Gibson, etc. means you take more of a loss when selling, if selling.

I d intend to keep my Guild, but I do worry just a bit about resale value if I choose to sell in a financial crunch.

My $265 '72 Guild was/is a D-35... mahogany, not rosewood....
 

Ridgemont

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Chazmo said:
Dennis,

From where I sit, I think there's still value in the new Guilds. The Martin equivalent (Grand J12-40E Special) of an F-512 is at least 30% higher in street price. That's perhaps the widest disparity you'll find in direct Martin comparisons (I'm talking new guitars here, of course). Was the gap wider in the Westerly years? I don't know. I think the gap has narrowed on a lot of the models though; I'll agree with that.

By the way, in your case you were trying out GSR models which you were rather lucky to find. There are only 20 or so of each of these GSRs, and they are intended to give the shop a chance to show off a little. In addition to the ones you tried, there is a GSR F-50 made out of koa wood. I think for the price, these are excellent values, although clearly not on the low-end.

I think what you guys feel is missing is the budget level. As thin an argument as it is, I will point out that Guild today builds products in China and Mexico, and those products represent the true budget products for Guild. Is a GAD-25 today as good a value as a Westerly D-25? I'm not sure I can answer that question objectively, but I think I know how most of us feel here on LTG. How about comparing a DV-4 today (Ensenada) with a DV-6 from Westerly...

I will also mention that I think the Guild shop folks understand the compression issue and are trying hard to find the right niche(s). The forthcoming Standard Series in my mind represents a potentially very high value. Of course, there's nothing to discuss yet on that front, but we'll hopefully see its introduction in late-Sep. - Oct.

I guess my point is that Guild today is, as we know, not the same as it was during the Westerly era. There are no electrics, archtops, or basses to talk about, and the product line that's actually built in the USA now is essentially a fraction of what it once was. The New Hartford folks are acutely aware of all this, and I'm optimistic that they will find a path for Guild.

All that said, Dennis makes an extremely valid point. Is the passion and vision currently residing in New Hartford going to produce a competitive and sustainable guitar company? Will Guild find the right marketing equation with all this?


Yes I agree. I feel it is only fair to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Obviously the vintage market is very favorable to someone shopping for a Westerly over any Martin or Gibson. But in comparing a brand new instrument from New Hartford to a brand new instrument made in Nazareth, one has to compare similar instruments. Now days, a regular D28 is not a fair comparison to a new D50. Guild has changed the appointments as well as wood choices and in doing so has slowly increased the price over the years. In searching the Martin website in the past, the closest comparison I found to a new D50 was a D28Marquis. That is the most similar comparison I could find for a rosewood dread. The D50 is roughly $2300 and the Marquis is $4100. These prices are street (not list) from the same vender (Musicians Friend). A big difference between similar instruments.
 

valleyguy

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I think what Fender is doing with the new Guilds makes sense, pricing them at those high levels.

First, the guitars are clearly able to compete in sound and quality with similarly priced guitars from Martin, Gibson and Taylor, though they may not have the "legend" status of the other makes, so it will be an uphill battle in that sense as Guilds have languished since the 90s. It will take time to reestablish the name as a quality product. Though they may not get the sales volume at the higher prices they would have had at the lower prices, I'm sure their higher margins will offset the lower volumes. This will also give them time to gear up the new plant to meet what will have to be higher volumes as we come out of the recession.

Second, Fender has no quality, high-end acoustic line, this positions them with a fine product in that market. As already mentioned, the Chinese GADs gives them a nice quality budget line. I have no idea what they're thinking with the Fender acoustics, except that some kid with a Fender electric would think that a Fender acoustic must also be a good buy. They are bottom of the line.

By raising prices on new Guilds it should slowly move the market prices of old Guilds higher. This is good if you're selling, bad if you're buying used Guilds. Guess the lesson here is to buy now before prices go up in the future (Ah, another excuse for some GAS).

I go to McCabes Guitar store in Santa Monica every now and then just to spend time playing their assorted guitars. They have two rooms, a small high-end room and a larger mid-range room. The Guilds always used to be in the mid-range room. Last I was there the D50 and D40 they had was now hanging in the high end room with the Collings, Martins, Goodalls and Taylors. And, I must say they more than held their own.

I recently saw the Plain White Ts perform on Jay Leno's Tongiht Show. Their guitar player was playing a fine looking D55 burst and had another Guild behind him on a stand. I wonder if Fender is starting to do what Gibson does, give their guitars to performers to get exposure.
 

valleyguy

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Ridgemont said:
... one has to compare similar instruments. Now days, a regular D28 is not a fair comparison to a new D50. Guild has changed the appointments as well as wood choices and in doing so has slowly increased the price over the years. In searching the Martin website in the past, the closest comparison I found to a new D50 was a D28Marquis. That is the most similar comparison I could find for a rosewood dread. The D50 is roughly $2300 and the Marquis is $4100. These prices are street (not list) from the same vender (Musicians Friend). A big difference between similar instruments.

Not sure this is a fair comparison. Though the woods are the same and have a SIMILAR sound, the appointments on the Marquis are way better than a D50, it's a much nicer looking guitar. A fairer comparison would be to the D16R with adi top, a fine sounding instrument, priced about the same as the D50.

Another fairer comparison would be to the HD28, which is priced a little higher than the D50, but also has scalloped braces (the D28 does not), but no adi top. It's Martin's best seller, for good reason, it's a marvelous sounding guitar, but dare I say, a little better looking than the D50.
 

Ridgemont

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valleyguy said:
I wonder if Fender is starting to do what Gibson does, give their guitars to performers to get exposure.

And why not? They definitely have the ability to do so.
 

FNG

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West R Lee said:
I couldn't agree more. I know what brought me to be a Guild lover was the super value we got for the price in the old days. Being so relatively inexpensive, and performing at least as well, and in most cases, better than the high dollar guitars, made Guild sort of the underdog, and almost universally accepted as underrated. Now it seems that value is gone. Not to say the new ones aren't great guitars, I'm sure they are nice....the few I've played seemed to have been, they're simply not the value they once were.


And here's a Guild D50 and a Martin D28 comparison (unless you're hung up on the type spruce)....both new guitars.


http://cgi.ebay.com/Martin-D-28-D28-Dre ... ?pt=Guitar

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Guild-USA-D50-B ... ?pt=Guitar

West

Not a fair comparison West, because the type of top wood does matter. At least to Martin when they come up with a price.

Heres the comparable Martin...a D-28 with Adi top.

http://www.mguitar.com/guitars/choosing ... %20Marquis

Retail 5299.

I think the Guild D-50 goes for 2899 retail.
 

Taylor Martin Guild

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Something that has not been discussed yet is that we are talking about Guild Guitars that are made in America.
The cost of building a guitar in America is much higher than in other countries.
With the cost of moving the factory and the high price that guitar woods are going for, I see new Guild guitars as a good buy.

It costs as much to build a Guild as it costs to build a Taylor or a Martin.
So why would someone expect to pay a lot less for a new Guild.

Looking back, I paid $870.00 for my Martin D-35 in 1981.
I bought it new then.
How much was a new Guild D-50 in 1981?

I think that the cost of a new Guild is still a great value for an American made guitar.
We just have to get out of this resession before many of us will be able to buy any new guitars.

Until then, a used Guild is still one of the best buys there is.
 

jgwoods

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I think Guild is where you get more bang for your buck still. I would say the target market of the D-40 is the D-18 Martin buyer. For the same money you get more guitar with the Guild- scalloped braces and an Adi top and the same level of trim. Same deal Guild D-50 and Martin D-28. Other comparisons are valid as far as they go, I just think those are the targets Guild aimed at- if they aimed at all, they may just be making what they think makes sense.

It will be interesting to see how 5 year old D-40s compare in price to 5 year old D-18s.
 

Taylor Martin Guild

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jgwoods said:
I think Guild is where you get more bang for your buck still. I would say the target market of the D-40 is the D-18 Martin buyer. For the same money you get more guitar with the Guild- scalloped braces and an Adi top and the same level of trim. Same deal Guild D-50 and Martin D-28. Other comparisons are valid as far as they go, I just think those are the targets Guild aimed at- if they aimed at all, they may just be making what they think makes sense.

It will be interesting to see how 5 year old D-40s compare in price to 5 year old D-18s.

Until Guild has been in business as lond as Martin has, I'm going to bet that the used Guild will not hold it's value as well as the used Martin will.
 

Ridgemont

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valleyguy said:
Ridgemont said:
... one has to compare similar instruments. Now days, a regular D28 is not a fair comparison to a new D50. Guild has changed the appointments as well as wood choices and in doing so has slowly increased the price over the years. In searching the Martin website in the past, the closest comparison I found to a new D50 was a D28Marquis. That is the most similar comparison I could find for a rosewood dread. The D50 is roughly $2300 and the Marquis is $4100. These prices are street (not list) from the same vender (Musicians Friend). A big difference between similar instruments.

Not sure this is a fair comparison. Though the woods are the same and have a SIMILAR sound, the appointments on the Marquis are way better than a D50, it's a much nicer looking guitar. A fairer comparison would be to the D16R with adi top, a fine sounding instrument, priced about the same as the D50.

Another fairer comparison would be to the HD28, which is priced a little higher than the D50, but also has scalloped braces (the D28 does not), but no adi top. It's Martin's best seller, for good reason, it's a marvelous sounding guitar, but dare I say, a little better looking than the D50.
The Martin 16 series have a bolt-on neck unlike the D50 which has a dovetail neck joint. While I do not mind the Martin bolt-on necks, I wouldn't be surprised if that would be a deal breaker for many. I do know it is for some on the Martin forum.

I rechecked the specs between the D28Marquis and the D50 and do not really see a difference. A few differences I did see were herringbone inlay on top of the Marquis, diamond position markers as opposed to pearl dots on the Guild, and a ivory saddle as opposed to bone on the Guild. Aside from that I did not see anything that stood out. Am I missing something?

I think if a D50 is targeting the D28 Standard Series audience, then we can look at it this way. Same price range: yes. But with Guild you get so much more. And if you want the equivalent in a Martin, you need to look at a higher end guitar than just the Standard Series.

My impression is that the upcoming Guild Standard Series will look to compete with the Martin Standard Series, as well as the -16 and -21 series.
 

valleyguy

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jgwoods said:
I think Guild is where you get more bang for your buck still. I would say the target market of the D-40 is the D-18 Martin buyer. For the same money you get more guitar with the Guild- scalloped braces and an Adi top and the same level of trim. Same deal Guild D-50 and Martin D-28. Other comparisons are valid as far as they go, I just think those are the targets Guild aimed at- if they aimed at all, they may just be making what they think makes sense.

I think you're right on here, though the white binding on the D28 does make it stand out more. Wish the D50 had that. The D40 and D50 look too much alike. Martin differentiates the D18 from the D28 with the ivorid body trim on the D28m. Looks classy.
 

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The new Guild pricing, at least as it appears to me, is as much a product of Fender's evaluation of the Marketplace in competition with dozens of companies, not just Martin or Gibson as it was forty years ago. Without Fender, there's a good possibility that this discussion would be redundant and Guild would have become just another footnote in American guitar history.

I thought about this the last time I got to play a NOS Tacoma and New Hartford guitars. The fit and finish are excellent, which if we're being totally honest with our Westerlys, wasn't always the case. And the tone....for guitars that you take right off the wall and play sound pretty good considering they haven't had twenty-years to open up.

Are they worth the money? That all depends on where your expectations lie. If you need a guitar that's cosmetically unblemished , has a warranty and won't or can't be concerned with neck, bridge, or finish issues and are able to afford the price of admission, go for it.

Personally, there is something about playing a guitar that's twenty, thirty or forty years old
that appeals to me. The patina, the feel and the tone of a guitar that's been played for dozens of summers and winters isn't apparent in a new instrument yet

It's also the reason that my wristwatch, though totally redundant in an Iphone world, is sixty years old. Not that old is better, just different.

David
 

valleyguy

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Ridgemont said:
I rechecked the specs between the D28Marquis and the D50 and do not really see a difference. A few differences I did see were herringbone inlay on top of the Marquis, diamond position markers as opposed to pearl dots on the Guild, and a ivory saddle as opposed to bone on the Guild. Aside from that I did not see anything that stood out. Am I missing something?

I played both of these instruments side by side some weeks ago. Maybe it's the white body binding with the herringbone top trim that makes it stand out, but the Marquis is just a better looking instrument in my hands. I have a Tacoma D50, I wish it had the white binding to differentiate it from the D40, it adds a touch of class. Oh, and the Marquis sounds great, but not at twice the price.

Back to the OP's topic though, if I were to purchase a new guitar today I would definitely be hard pressed to justify buying a D50 over an HD28 for just a little more. I bought mine 18 months ago for $1650 (with a DTAR) not $2300.

Funny how the adirondack tops seem to command such a premium. The cost differential between sitka and adi is not that great, less than $100, see here:

http://www.goodmanguitars.com/wood/spruce.html
 

Dennis M

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Wow, I certainly stirred up a hornet's next on this subject. And it went in many very different directions, although staying on the path of high prices for the new Guilds.

Maybe I am a bit behind the 8-ball on prices of new Martins and the like. Last I looked, a current D-28 goes for around $2,000 in most places, sometimes a bit more. What is the price of the D-50? Around the same? a bit less? If I could compare one such model, the D-28 and the D-50 (Guild), then here I go:

The D-50 is made with several better appointments than the Martin d-28. Martin is cutting back, Guild is forging ahead. With the exception of the ivoroid binding, Guild is packing everything but the kitchen sink into the D-50s, the D-40s, etc.
I guess with all that good stuff, they have a good reason to jack up the price. Hey, you are getting top notch materials in a premium, although production guitar.

It is what the company does[i with those woods they pour into their models is what makes them different. I think there is a big difference in sound and playability between the D-28 and the Guild D-50. It is what speaks to you, as a player. I will always love the sound of a D-28, and someday, hope to justify buying one. Not so sure about the new D-50.

I do know this, my '82 D-50 sounds a heck of a lot different from the newer ones. A lot brighter, more "alive" sound.
The sustain is amazing, the guitar almost plays itself! Both are good, as is the D-28, but . . . it's "different, Forest . . ."

Just sounding off here, folks, and adding to the discussion.

Dennis M
 

Ridgemont

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valleyguy said:
I played both of these instruments side by side some weeks ago. Maybe it's the white body binding with the herringbone top trim that makes it stand out, but the Marquis is just a better looking instrument in my hands. I have a Tacoma D50, I wish it had the white binding to differentiate it from the D40, it adds a touch of class. Oh, and the Marquis sounds great, but not at twice the price.

You have a point there. Taste in appointments is subjective just like tone. Personally, I really like the way the tortoise shell binding looks with rosewood, but you can't even tell it is there on mahogany. For mahogany, I have always liked Gibsons dark chocolate stain with white binding.
 

taabru45

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I love the tortoice shell binding on my D50...the tone is already great, and she's still a baby... :lol: :lol: Steffan
 

Taylor Martin Guild

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Dennis, I agree with what you said about the Guild having nicer appointments than a Martin of equal market value.

Martin is number 1 and they know it.
Guild has to try harder and do more to pull someone away from Martin.
They are currently doing a great job of doing this.
In fact, Guild has been doing this for years.

Now Fender needs to do a good marketing campaign for Guild.
 

adorshki

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Dennis M said:
If I am going to shell out that much money, then I will shop around, try different brands. That is how I chose my D-50 back in 1982. Had a budget, and tried about a dozen different models, and narrowed it down to the one I have today.
Just my humble opinion.
Dennis M
A perfectly valid philosophy. I'd be very interested to hear back when you've made yor decision, if history repeated itself.. I think that's what we all truly hope is still the case with the NH product.
And I still think that if you plan to keep a guitar for a lifetime that new is actually the best deal in the long run.
 

West R Lee

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Dadaist said:
The new Guild pricing, at least as it appears to me, is as much a product of Fender's evaluation of the Marketplace in competition with dozens of companies, not just Martin or Gibson as it was forty years ago. Without Fender, there's a good possibility that this discussion would be redundant and Guild would have become just another footnote in American guitar history.

I thought about this the last time I got to play a NOS Tacoma and New Hartford guitars. The fit and finish are excellent, which if we're being totally honest with our Westerlys, wasn't always the case. And the tone....for guitars that you take right off the wall and play sound pretty good considering they haven't had twenty-years to open up.

Are they worth the money? That all depends on where your expectations lie. If you need a guitar that's cosmetically unblemished , has a warranty and won't or can't be concerned with neck, bridge, or finish issues and are able to afford the price of admission, go for it.

Personally, there is something about playing a guitar that's twenty, thirty or forty years old
that appeals to me. The patina, the feel and the tone of a guitar that's been played for dozens of summers and winters isn't apparent in a new instrument yet

It's also the reason that my wristwatch, though totally redundant in an Iphone world, is sixty years old. Not that old is better, just different.

David

Sorry guys, I really don't mean to be stirring it up, but we've been over this a thousand times here. I'm going to have to very respectfully disagree. Total honesty? OK, I'll be totally honest. All of my Guilds are Westerly built Guilds, and NONE of them have factory imperfections. To draw a comparison between Westerly built and N.H. built Guilds is rediculous. N.H. has been in business, what about 2 years tops, Westerly for about 34 years......that's almost 3 1/2 decades. To imply that N.H. Guild or Tacoma guitars are better built guitars than the old Westerly's is absurd. There is absolutely nothing to base that on. You may prefer a New Hartford's looks for whatever reason, and the tone of a particular guitar is certainly subjective, but none of mine have ever had a loose fret, required a neck reset, had a loose brace, had cracks develope or had finish problems.....nothing....ever, and the D25 is a 31 year old guitar and has been abused. When New Hartford has been around for 34 years, I'll become a believer. They certainly have made believers out of most of you. And for the record, there are a TON of seconds, used or blems, whatever you want to call them currently being sold on eBay that were built in Tacoma. Just saying, Corona for a couple of years, Tacoma for a couple of years, been in Connecticut for a couple of years.......Westerly for 34 years, I'll take a wait and see attitude, but I'm still a bit skeptical.....I can't help myself.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13293

As far as a Guild/Martin comparison, personally I think the 30 year old Guilds are much better looking guitars than what I've seen coming from Martin today, and I've played exactly one Martin that I thought compared to the tone of the DV's....and I've played a whole bunch of Martins.

Having said all of that, I'm currently looking at New Hartford built Guilds....may actually buy one just to see what all the hoopla is about.....if I can afford one. I still maintain that the Guilds of old were a bargain in direct comparison to the competition at the time. They've lost their value advantage for whatever reason.

I love each and every one of you, we just disagree. :)

Your brother in Guild,

West
 
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