Mysteries of X350 Pushbutton Switching

Today a beautiful 1960 X350 arrived at my door. After waiting a few hours for it to adjust to room temperature, I cracked open the case and began exploring the guitar. A few minutes of button pushing was followed by many more minutes searching through threads on the LTG site to learn what the heck was going on with the tone shaping. I now understand there are various caps tied to the waring blender control box options.

Is cap clipping really the way to go? Is there any sonic argument to be made for leaving the "mud" switches in place? Has anyone manuvered this guitar to a place of tonal nirvana, and, if so, did it sound like jazz, rockabilly or something else? Did Gibson and Epiphone also build in similar cap jobs? What was Guild (and the others) thinking?

It's a magnificent guitar, especially for a confirmed Franz-loving button-pusher. Looking forward to dialing it in.

Many thanks!

Bill

Years back I owned a beauty of a X375 (Blond X350) but had a similar reaction to the switch button tone circuit. My fantasy was to simplify the filtering and add independent volume controls to each pickup. I also would perfer to have a tone control for the bridge pickup instead of a master tone control.

The guitar I owned was to nice to alter so I never made the alterations and eventually sold the guitar. However I do have a heavily altered X175 project under way that will be a triple pickup model when I'm done with independent control of each pickup. It will be a few months before that project is complete but it is underway. However on this guitar I am going to start out with a pair of Franz (neck/bridge) and a middle Dearmond Model 200 Pup. Maybe I'll do 3 Franz but I want to try the DeA first.

M

Matsickma,

Something is odd about the pushbutton unit on this one. The button closest to the end pin (the one that should be marked TM) is a plain topped button with no marking, although it matches the shape and color of the others. When this button is depressed, it is flush with the tops of the others, but when any other button is depressed, the plain button rises above the level of all others by about 5/16". It could be that the button is not pressed firmly on the shaft, but I'm wondering if perhaps it was intended for the lowest button to ride higher than the rest? Seems odd...

What's the verdict from those who have clipped the caps?

Many thanks!

Bill

On mine all the buttons were even when not depressed. When selected the button was recessed. It was possible for multiple buttons to be depressed at one time.

I would remove the two screws and examine the mechanism to see if you can spot anything unusual.

M

Just opened it up. Nothing unusual about the mechanism. Looked original and aged. I cleaned the contacts and lubricated the mechanism. Works smoothly now with no noise when changing buttons. My guess is slot in the the replacement button was a wee bit too small and it was only pushed on slightly. It's tight, but I'll bet it's not seated all the way. I'll wait before pulling it off (will take some force) to make sure this is a keeper. Don't want to bust a button. Can one of these be had with the proper "TM" marking?

Thanks, Matsickma.

Bill

Bill -

I have a X350 and a X375 and on both the buttons ride the same height and only one at a time can be selected. Also It's apparently not uncommon to find the markings on one or more of the original buttons to be missing. One of mine is like that and I have seen it on others.

As to your first question, there's many variables, but through an Guild made Sonola amp both of mine sound gorgeous, warm and mellow to fairly bright, bluesy to jazzy. It took alot of fiddling with buttons and tone nobs to get the full range.

If you want something really bright though, maybe a X-175 would be a better fit.

They are great guitars and can't fail to impress.

Mick

Mick,

Many thanks for the extra info. I'm guessing this particular button needs more persuasion to get it properly seated. I may enlarge the slot and give it a whirl.

I'm encouraged to hear you have warmed up to the stock tone. I may be gravitating that way, too. Lately I've been exploring jazz box set ups, but I sure do love some good rockabilly. So... I wasn't really sure which way the x350 was sonically headed until it arrived.

I have a '63 Manhattan with Guildbuckers and a '59 Manhattan with Franz, so your counsel on the X175 makes sense. To be honest, the Guild love-of-my-life is a well-worn blonde '59 T-100D. It's about the best damn guitar ever. Those Franz pups really spank. It's a rocker all the way, and I love it. But now I have taken a few tentative steps into Kenny Burrell territory. Last summer I lucked into a beautiful blonde '54 ES-175 with a single P-90. Nice guitar. And the flats on my CA-100 with a DeArmond 1100 sound yummy.

In the end, doesn't everyone secretly want to cop Walter B's tone?

Love to hear more from those "switch heads" out there.

Many thanks!

Bill

Ok, here's my report after spending some time getting to know my way around the 350. I'm repeating this from my posting on the craigslist/ebay forum.

This is an unreal vintage guitar. It's probably as close to "off the shelf" as you're likely to get on a 50-year old guitar. It's positively stunning. The gold plating is still full of depth and shine, even on the harp tail piece. No dings, no mars, no nothing. As described in the listing, the push button switch plate has a broken screw hole on the side closest to the tone knob. It looks like a victim of shrinkage. The broken piece was effectively glued back on the plate, but the hole no longer lines up; hence, there was no screw in it. The TM (treble middle) knob has been replaced by an unmarked (plain), but perfectly matched, knob. Other than that, it's a real time machine. No noticeable player wear on the original frets. Beautiful guitar.

After playing for almost two hours, I'm getting familiar with the tones that come from the various pickup combinations. The switching system allows all combinations of pickups, but the middle and neck pickup positions have two different capacitors in place that mute the tone, with the neck pickup being the darkest. Selecting the neck pickup alone on this guitar reminds me of flipping the "mud switch" on my Country Gent and Tennessean. It strangles all the treble leaving a preponderance of low frequency mud. A completely useless tone on the Gretsches that no one used. Unless you were covering while the bass player grabbed a beer.

I've read suggestions on LTG that suggest disabling those caps will provide a straightforward selection of pickups without cutting the high frequencies. That's how I was expecting them to be, so what I have is something of a surprise. Before I go monkeying around with anything I want to hear more about what Guild was thinking. They produced this guitar for a good number of years, so it must have served someone's purpose(s). I can only wonder.

The single volume and tone control make this an easy guitar to fiddle with during play, much like a two-knob Tele. Pushing buttons will never be as fast as flipping switches on the fly, but it's really not that difficult, especially when seated. I have a three-pickup H-78 Harmony that I love, but it has three toggle switches, one for each pickup. Changing pickup configurations on that can get very flippy very fast. You have to remember where you are to know how to get where you want to go. Again, you get used to anything.

So, bottomline for night #1, gorgeous guitar, incredible shape, strange tone shaping, but a fine playing instrument.

I'm still eager to hear from those who have modified the 350 tone circuit or have found contentment with it the way it was designed. If it's working for you, how dod you have it set up, and for what kind of music?

Thanks to all...

Bill

One of our LTGers who worked at the Westerly plant and was there when it closed and rescued a bag of the white style switch buttons for the X350/375's with all the markings. His LTG name is "hideglue". I haven't seen him post lately but maybe he can help you.

M

Great tip, Matsickma. I shot a PM to Hideglue. Hopefully he has just the "tip" I need.

Many thanks for the help!

Bill

motopsyche said:

I've read suggestions on LTG that suggest disabling those caps will provide a straightforward selection of pickups without cutting the high frequencies. That's how I was expecting them to be, so what I have is something of a surprise. Before I go monkeying around with anything I want to hear more about what Guild was thinking. They produced this guitar for a good number of years, so it must have served someone's purpose(s). I can only wonder.

Click to expand...

I'd just go ahead and get rid of the caps, I don't think if you ever get rid of the guitar it will influence its value too much, and what good is a Franz neck pickup without all that glorious treble, anyway? :wink:

I think if I had one of these guitars I'd be very tempted to replace the whole switching system with a custom made plastic plate with a three-way pickup selector wired like a twin-pickup guitar, and a volume knob to bring in the middle pickup. And I'd be very tempted to wire the middle pickup out of phase for some T-Bone Walker/Gibson ES5 goodness.... 8)

Oh..and...congratulations on a very nice guitar btw!!! you have great taste in guitars!

I like the way Walter thinks. But if you decide to keep the "ker-clunk" switching...



(incandescent bulb is "warming" the color quite a bit)

motopsyche said:

My guess is slot in the the replacement button was a wee bit too small and it was only pushed on slightly.

Click to expand...

My luthier and I just looked at the switch assembly on my '53. The laminated switchplate has shrunk, so it is pinching in on both ends and hampering the switches just a little. He's just going to open up those two holes a little bit.

My X350 may be a good candidate for trying out some of the modifications suggested.

My family has a slogan: "often wrong, never in doubt". I bought the guitar for $1500 BIN from a dealer i didn't know, with shitty photos. I knew that the finish was not great, that it needed binding repairs and that it would be hard to find an original tailpiece. I still thought I had a bargain. 'Fraid not.

The back bindng is shot. Layers of ply are separating on the waist of the bass rim. The peghead surface looks corroded near the nut, as if it had been eaten away by something. The pickguard is amazingy warped. The frets are shot, and the fingerboard has huge divots all up and down the neck - Eiichi the luthier said it looked as if had been played by an aggressive blues guy who never cut his fingernails. It's had a replacement neck binding sometime, which seems to have been heatshrunk over the ends of the frets. Etc. So - it will never come back to acceptable condition. And I'll never get the best from such a guitar anyway. I could sell it, but it's somehow too cool for that. So it could just hang on my wall as a permanent reminder of the perils of quick decisions without judgment.

But an ancient X350 would be the only way to test all sorts of hypotheses about caps and switches and wiring.

Here's my proposal. I'll donate the guitar to LTG. You guys figure out a plan of experiment, starting (I presume) with the least disruptive modification. Whoever gets first crack at it pays for shipping to him or her. Finish playing about, and send it on. If the process ever comes to an end for lack of interest, we put it up on eBay and give the money to Don.

Sensible?

Wow...some great information tonight! I'm inclined to agree with Mr. Broes that setting the Franz pups free is the way to go. If I'd found a well-worn beater I might have gone the extra wiring mile, but this baby is too pristine for such hijinks. I'm happy to ker-clunk my way through all the tasty tone combos. If I was a high octane stage twanger like Walter, I'd take a different tack. He's right; what good is a Franz neck pup if you can't hear him howl?

Hideglue, I'd love to get my hot little hands on that TM button. Sure looks pretty. How may Harmonys or Silvertones will it take? I'm a motivated guy.

Speaking of Harmony, has anyone out there discovered what little tone monsters the Harmony H-15 solid bodies are? I pick 'em up when I see 'em cheap on evilbay, dress the frets, raise the bridge pickup an 1/8" or so to balance the enormous honk of the neck pickup, slap a B-5 Bigsby on them, run a ground wire to the Bigs and then shove 'em into the hands of hot players I know who can make them sing. From slide to surf to blues to rock and back, they are the best DIY value out there. The DeArmond gold foil pups are huge with tone.

Many thanks to all for helping with this 350. It looks and plays like a keeper. Now it needs to sound like one.

Bill

John,

Our posts passed in the night.

Count me in. I'd love to practice open-heart on a beater before diving into this one. The least disruptive action might be to clip the caps and see how it sounds, so I'd volunteer for that job. It might be cost prohibitive to ship it to Belgium, but it's only right for Walter to do the Frankenwiring, if he's game. If fact, we may never get it back if it works out on the rockabilly circuit.

Bill

Whoa John, that's a fun idea in theory, but I can't afford shipping a guitar across the ocean for what's basically fun and games - I'm perpetually broke, and can hardly keep up keeping my own guitar and amp "stable" working and in stage-worthy shape! Currently have two vintage Danelectros that need a refret, a Guild that needs a new nut, and by the time that's done and paid for, my N°1 X175 will need at least a partial refret - and then I didn't get to the amps yet....!!

If I lived a little closer, I'd totally be up for it though!

Perhaps Walter could provide guidance from afar while others do the work according to his crazed wiring scheme? What could it take? A pen, a cocktail napkin and a few beers?

Walter's idea of swapping the switch plate for a whatever-you-want version is great, since it't totally reversible. If it were me, though, I'd probably wire it like a G&L S-500:

strat-style standard 5-way switch, plus a mini toggle that turns on both the neck and bridge pickups, which, in switch positions 1 and 5 gives you neck and bridge both and in position 3 gives you all 3 pickups. With the switch off, then you get the regular N-N+M-M-M+B-B strat arrangement.

You could also use a push/pull pot to accomplish same instead of a mini toggle.

BTW, I'd love to have one of these guitars, and halfway considered calling New Hope to offer random trade proposals for theirs.

How many options are there?

If I were back in my lab, I'd ask someone to make a replaceable switch assembly for a test bed. Might there be a stock switch plate that fits close enough, that could have holes drilled, switches mounted, etc.? Find a suitable jack for the wires from the pickups, with a corresponding plug from the switch assembly? Then one could swap assemblies in and out at will.

I will get a cheap new binding on the back just to hold it together. Then, when you have figured out the options and a plan of attack, I'll start the guitar on its way.