fretless M-85

bassman10096 · Jun 21, 2021

hieronymous said:
OK, so after that veer, I'm going to post this again...

...and wonder - how much of the sound is A) the strings (LaBella Deep Talkin' flatwounds), B) the electronics (Alembic), C) the bass (including scale length, body & neck wood), and/or D) the wooden saddles? Actually, the pick may be a significant part of the equation. Obviously it's a combination of all these factors and more, but I do wonder if the sound would change significantly with metal saddles for example, or an Alembic style bridge. For now, I'm going with if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

You certainly copped a whole lot fo Phil there. My highest compliments to your play and interpretation. I think the technical side is about as close as it needs. IMHO, LaBellas have become (over the years) just about as articulate as the Pyramids Phil played back in the day. As much as I like current-day Pyramid flats, I really have a harder time getting to Phil’s tones than I do with LaBellas.
i think the rosewood bridge saddles are sort of extraneous. Short of an Alembic bridge, you could switch to metal saddles or a reissue, Fender-style harp bridge (metal, threaded saddles for easy intonation) if you wanted. Even though these probably won’t get quite as metallic-gritty as Phil sometimes sounded your playing landed the feel and timbre, if not the precise sound the notes.
Nice job!!!

hieronymous · Jun 21, 2021

mellowgerman said:
Nice. I've found that choice of pick definitely makes a difference. These days, on bass, I only use Tortex picks around 1mm thickness. On guitar I'm a little less picky (pun 100% intended) and will switch between standard medium picks up to the thicker Tortex ones depending on my mood, what song I'm playing, or what's closest by.

Interesting - my standard pick of late has been the Dunlop Tortex 1.14mm - the purple ones. I was using graphite for several years (the triangular Telefunken and the Adamas graphite - 2mm!

mavuser said:
u sound great man! do u think there is any way to get the Harry-lembic pickups in a GSR M-85, but somehow have the battery and whatever else be external (since there is no control cavity in a fully hollow GSR M-85)?

Good question - you would have to contact Alembic directly. That could be cool, like have a connector on the bass, maybe where the regular output jack would be, but with some kind of multi-pin connector that would connect to a box that attached to your strap or on the amp?

bassman10096 said:
You certainly copped a whole lot fo Phil there. My highest compliments to your play and interpretation. I think the technical side is about as close as it needs. IMHO, LaBellas have become (over the years) just about as articulate as the Pyramids Phil played back in the day. As much as I like current-day Pyramid flats, I really have a harder time getting to Phil’s tones than I do with LaBellas.
i think the rosewood bridge saddles are sort of extraneous. Short of an Alembic bridge, you could switch to metal saddles or a reissue, Fender-style bridge (easy intonation) if you wanted. Even though these probably won’t get quite as metallic-gritty as Phil sometimes sounded your playing landed the feel and timbre, if not the precise sound the notes.
Nice job!!!

Thanks! I have never tried Pyramids myself. I've been experimenting with GHS Precision Flats on my Gibson Les Paul Triumph Bass, but only ever used the LaBellas on this one.

I actually have a set of metal saddles, but I'm waiting until I actually need them before having them installed. I think my G-string saddle is a replacement, and wasn't grooved (? can't think of the right verb) very well, but it works and I don't notice. If the other three are original, then they're 50 years old this year! Not sure where it's lived before, but it's been with me in the SF Bay Area for about 10 years so not as extreme if it was in New England or someplace like that.

bassman10096 · Jun 21, 2021

Again. Nice playing. Although I heard of Pyramids first in relation to Phil and (I think) Jack back in the day, I actually use them on my P basses. Once they wear in, they have agreat vintage flat sound with nice mids.
Unfortunately they are very stiff at the tuner end, so you have to be careful winding the lower strings if your tuners have smaller capstans (like Gotohs) vs wider capstans like Fender and Guild.
Pyramids flats cost more but they hold their own against other flats

bassman10096 · Jun 21, 2021

hieronymous said:
Interesting - my standard pick of late has been the Dunlop Tortex 1.14mm - the purple ones. I was using graphite for several years (the triangular Telefunken and the Adamas graphite - 2mm!

Good question - you would have to contact Alembic directly. That could be cool, like have a connector on the bass, maybe where the regular output jack would be, but with some kind of multi-pin connector that would connect to a box that attached to your strap or on the amp?

Thanks! I have never tried Pyramids myself. I've been experimenting with GHS Precision Flats on my Gibson Les Paul Triumph Bass, but only ever used the LaBellas on this one.

I actually have a set of metal saddles, but I'm waiting until I actually need them before having them installed. I think my G-string saddle is a replacement, and wasn't grooved (? can't think of the right verb) very well, but it works and I don't notice. If the other three are original, then they're 50 years old this year! Not sure where it's lived before, but it's been with me in the SF Bay Area for about 10 years so not as extreme if it was in New England or someplace like that.

I think a competent luthier should be able to file the G saddle to properly align with the others and to intonate perfectly.

bassman10096 · Jun 21, 2021

bassman10096 said:
I think a competent luthier should be able to file the G saddle to properly align with the others and to intonate perfectly.

Happy Face · Jun 21, 2021

mavuser said:
u sound great man! do u think there is any way to get the Harry-lembic pickups in a GSR M-85, but somehow have the battery and whatever else be external (since there is no control cavity in a fully hollow GSR M-85)?

Mgod should speak up and correct me, but I believe that the early Char-lembics had external power supplies. So probably doable. Perhaps...

RVBASS · Jun 21, 2021

Sounds great, Hieronymous, both the playing and tone!

Mavuser, Alembic might be able to install a five pin for external power with a DS-5 if you have them do the pickups and electronics, they did that for my Starfire.

hieronymous · Jun 22, 2021

I should mention that @edwin turned me on to the graphite picks - both the Telefunken & Adamas. I have since bought my own, they are both still available as far as I know.

This was an interesting exercise - there are times when a certain pick feels right, switching to a different one kind of kills the vibe. Listening back there may not be that much difference in sound, but the feel has a big impact on my playing.

hieronymous · Dec 5, 2021

I've been messing around with electronic music for a few months - got the Moog DFAM (drummer from another mother) & Subharmonicon to help me make soundscapes to play my bass along with. Recently I incorporated my AleM-85 for a contest at a synthesizer forum, and in the meantime came up with this:

You can only see the bass a couple of times (and only the back of the headstock), but I like the mood of the piece and thought it was worth posting here. I'm running both pickups, with the bridge pickup frequency boosted to try and get some different sounds out of the envelope filter (Moogerfooger MF-101 lowpass filter), which I then EQ'd a bit. The envelope is also triggering the Subharmonicon sequencer to play - it didn't necessarily do what I was expecting it to do (and this recording is my experimenting trying to figure out what it's doing) but I like what it's doing, it was fun to play along with it as much as it was playing along with me...

RVBASS · Dec 5, 2021

Hieronymous, the bass and synth sounds are fantastic!

hieronymous · Dec 5, 2021

RVBASS said:
Hieronymous, the bass and synth sounds are fantastic!

Thanks! Was nice to use the fretless like this, wasn't the sound I usually go for, so was nice to experiment, especially with the Moog filter. It being fretless with flats, it doesn't necessarily have the high & mid frequencies that a fretted bass would, or rounds, though I did try and set the Alembic filter where the Moog filter would have something to work with. The Moog filter is such an interesting color, and that's really what I was boosting with the eq (my trusty old brown BOSS PQ-3B parametric eq).

I'm still learning the Moog - need to experiment with incorporating the sub-octaves, and also more eq & effects.

mavuser · Dec 5, 2021

hieronymous said:
I'm still learning the Moog - need to experiment with incorporating the sub-octaves, and also more eq & effects.

GO IN THIS DIRECTION

hieronymous · Saturday at 9:35 PM

mavuser said:
GO IN THIS DIRECTION

So I didn't end up going in this direction

In fact, I don't think I picked up my AleM-85 at all since then. Almost two and a half years! But recently I felt it calling to me...

Playing with a wood pick through a SansAmp - the Geddy Lee MP40, basically like the YYZ - it gives you fat bottom end that you can blend with the higher frequency stuff - kinda like an Alembic or Rickenbacker being run in stereo - kind of a genius pedal, it fits the way I work - and Moving Pictures is probably my favorite RUSH album

Also - these strings (LaBella flats) have been on here for quite a long time. Maybe time for some new ones? I broke down and ordered short scale Pyramid flats for the first time - hope they fit (though if not I might try them on my Gibson Les Paul Triumph) - also another LaBella set just in case (760FL-M). I was motivated to order finally because when I was getting my settings dialed in, I felt frustrated with the "deadness" of the E compared to the rest. But the next night, I felt like that didn't matter - probably because I was playing along with music rather than just listening to the bass in a vacuum. So I might not change the strings for a while...

mellowgerman · Sunday at 10:15 AM

That sounds oh so good. Would have happily listened to the entire tune! (or the entire show)

hieronymous · Sunday at 5:50 PM

mellowgerman said:
That sounds oh so good. Would have happily listened to the entire tune! (or the entire show)

Thanks! It sure helps that I'm playing along with Jerry Garcia! I'm mining my GD CD collection for stuff that will be good to put through Moises and play along with. In addition to listening for good performances by the band and Jerry, the bass has to sound like a bass, otherwise Moises gets confused and can't separate it. I also want to experiment with my pickup settings, and eventually strings when the Pyramids arrive!

hieronymous · Sunday at 10:24 PM

mellowgerman said:
That sounds oh so good. Would have happily listened to the entire tune! (or the entire show)

I actually did another take with a later bit - all the way to the end! Far from perfect, but I think the bass can be heard nicely in some different dynamic contexts - just gotta work on that intonation...

mellowgerman · 2024-05-06T10:12:39-0400

Awesome, thanks for sharing!

Fretless intonation is probably a challenge for the majority of us who play mostly fretted. I play fretted short scale basses 95% of the time specifically because they feel most comfortable to me, but my fretless is actually a long scale... which feels more natural to me on fretless for some strange reason. I wonder if it has to do with having played big ol' upright for some years? Still though, regardless of scale length, fretless definitely requires more effort for me and it's harder for me to "get lost in the music" because I have to focus on my fretting hand

Happy Face · 2024-05-06T18:40:02-0400

Agreed. I briefly owned a fretless Steinberger XL bass. A lovely thing, but when I brought it to a band practice I found it difficult to play when I had any kind of vocal part to sing.

The concentration factor you mentioned plus I came to realize how much I rely on feeling the frets with my left hand when I'm singing and cannot keep looking down at the neck.

I long-winded intro to why I have so much respect for singing bass players who wield a fretless. The older Jack Bruce, for one.

That's not to diminish our very own Heironymous on those clips!!!

mavuser · 2024-05-06T18:59:30-0400

hieronymous said:
Thanks! It sure helps that I'm playing along with Jerry Garcia! I'm mining my GD CD collection for stuff that will be good to put through Moises and play along with. In addition to listening for good performances by the band and Jerry, the bass has to sound like a bass, otherwise Moises gets confused and can't separate it. I also want to experiment with my pickup settings, and eventually strings when the Pyramids arrive!

just throwing darts here, but possibly He's Gone, Eyes of the World, or Viola Lee Blues may work on the fretless?

hieronymous · 2024-05-07T01:02:44-0400

mellowgerman said:
Awesome, thanks for sharing!

Fretless intonation is probably a challenge for the majority of us who play mostly fretted. I play fretted short scale basses 95% of the time specifically because they feel most comfortable to me, but my fretless is actually a long scale... which feels more natural to me on fretless for some strange reason. I wonder if it has to do with having played big ol' upright for some years? Still though, regardless of scale length, fretless definitely requires more effort for me and it's harder for me to "get lost in the music" because I have to focus on my fretting hand

Happy Face said:
Agreed. I briefly owned a fretless Steinberger XL bass. A lovely thing, but when I brought it to a band practice I found it difficult to play when I had any kind of vocal part to sing.

The concentration factor you mentioned plus I came to realize how much I rely on feeling the frets with my left hand when I'm singing and cannot keep looking down at the neck.

I long-winded intro to why I have so much respect for singing bass players who wield a fretless. The older Jack Bruce, for one.

That's not to diminish our very own Heironymous on those clips!!!

I would never want to play fretless 100% of the time! I also don't think I could sing and play it at the same time well. Just playing fretless requires that extra bit of attention that I would prefer not to have to use all the time. But there's something about it that's seductive too - it can be more expressive - but is it worth the trade-off? It hasn't been for the past 2-3 years obviously, since I never picked it up during that time!

mavuser said:
just throwing darts here, but possibly He's Gone, Eyes of the World, or Viola Lee Blues may work on the fretless?

Those are good ones. A slower song like He's Gone might be a little tough since the notes sustain a bit longer so intonation that much more important. Eyes would be hard playing up high, but it might be fun to tackle the 7/8 section they did for a bit in the early '70s. I've never tried to play Viola Lee Blues - might have to see if I can come up with a version of that!

And the big challenge - the fretless part in Close to the Edge by Yes that I never knew was fretless!

fretless M-85

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