Now I need a 10" speaker (with poll)

Speaker choice for a '65 Princeton Reverb

  • Jensen P10R

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Weber Sig 10

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Weber Vintage 10A100

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Recone the Utah

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Some other speaker

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ship it to me and forget about it

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

AlohaJoe

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As I mentioned in the previous thread, my "new" but mouse-crap filled Princeton Reverb lost substantial chunks of speaker to rodential nesting efforts. I thought it made sense to start a new thread since this is really a new subject.

It is (was) a Utah 10" And I'm considering an Alnico Jensen P10R or Weber. The Weber signature series are only $30-40. Their 'Vintage' series is twice as much, as is the Jensen. Anybody have experience with either of these?

I would consider re-coning but I have been told that the old Utahs were notoriously inefficient... any thought or suggestions on that would be welcome too.
 

Default

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The story goes that Leo Fender was ticked off at his regular supplier and switched to Utah for a year or two. I would buy a Weber and have the Utah reconed, just in case you ever decided to sell it.
 

Walter Broes

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I agree with Default, but I'd get a different Weber than the ones you list, if you're looking for more clean headroom and efficiency.

I have a couple of the Sig10A's, and while they're great little speakers, they wouldn't be my first choice for a Princeton Reverb - I'd get something with a bigger voice coil and a bigger (ceramic) magnet, like a 10F125 or even the 10F150T.
If those are too expensive, I'd get an Eminence Legend 1058, pretty good, general purpose ceramic 10 that won't break the bank.
 

capnjuan

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Hi AJ; If your'e going to gig it and volume and clean headroom are a concern, I agree with Walter that you ought to look to a better grade ceramic speaker like the Weber 10F125/10F150. These are more efficient speakers that do a better job of converting energy into volume/loudness than do alnico speakers. If you're going to use the amp for recording and informal jamming and tone is most important, get the Utah re-coned and put it back in there and save your tips from your lawn-cutting jobs and buy a Weber 'Vintage' model, not the 'Signature'. CJ
 

AlohaJoe

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I might gig with it, depending on the gig, but I often mike the amp anyway and haven't played the Astrodome since, well... never! :lol: My primary interest is in tone and having a sound that makes me want to play more.

Thank you all for the suggestions. I'm really grateful to have this community... you guys know a LOT more about this stuff than I do.

I'm coming over to the idea that the extra dollars for a better speaker is probably $ well spent in the long run, and with our LTF experts weighing in for ceramics I'm liking that idea more too. I've heard good things about the 10F125 & 150 in other places as well, so I'll take a closer look at those. I was concerned that the ceramics might be too bright (esp in a 10"), but maybe not.

Re-coning the Utah is starting to sound like a no-brainer! Plus, if I do that first, I might even like it!

- Joe
 

capnjuan

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AlohaJoe said:
... I'm coming over to the idea that the extra dollars for a better speaker is probably $ well spent in the long run ... I was concerned that the ceramics might be too bright (esp in a 10"), but maybe not ... Re-coning the Utah is starting to sound like a no-brainer! Plus, if I do that first, I might even like it!
Hi Joe; The blackface PRs (the no-mice models :wink: ) are just about the reigning gold standard in studio amps. When new, chances are it was fitted with a ceramic speaker because at the time, the Government declared cobalt - the 'co' in alnico - a Defense Department-only resource; there were no commerically available new alnico speakers when the amp was made and sold. So, to the extent you have a preserving instinct, you might want to keep in mind that, under other circumstances, it would likely have been sold with alnico because it's only a 15 watt amp.

I get 12" speakers re-coned locally for $35-$40 about the same as Weber or Orange County but without the shipping. Even if you don't eventually stay with it, you'll have a brand-good speaker in your pocket. Whatever it does, a Weber will do more of it and in fairness to any speaker, you're going to have to play it for several hours to get it to loosen up. I crabbed about 'veiled' tone in my GA30RV before I took the speakers out and realized they'd both been recently re-coned. :oops: :lol:

If you find it too dark - as many people do - or that it mushes up at top volume, then you might want to head over to Aisle B where the ceramic speakers are. They will generally - but not always - be brighter, hotter, a little more forward where alnico will tend to be a little darker, a little chimier, at least to me, a cooler quality that I like ... but then I like Gouda where others prefer Swiss ... Have fun! CJ
 

AlohaJoe

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capnjuan said:
When new, chances are it was fitted with a ceramic speaker because at the time, the Government declared cobalt - the 'co' in alnico - a Defense Department-only resource; there were no commerically available new alnico speakers when the amp was made and sold.
Now that's interesting! I knew ALuminum, NIckel and CObalt, but I had no idea of that history. Cool!
capnjuan said:
...you might want to head over to Aisle B where the ceramic speakers are. They will generally - but not always - be brighter, hotter, a little more forward where alnico will tend to be a little darker, a little chimier, at least to me, a cooler quality that I like
I think I like that too although I'm open to new ideas... I have a tweed Li'l Dawg Champster Special with an undoped vintage alnico 12" Rola that is so responsive it's scary and I love the chime. A few years ago I put an alnico 12" in a Blues Jr and loved it. Eventually, I sold it to buy the Champster, but the alnicos do seem to have a warmth and chimey liveliness that I tend to like.
 

Walter Broes

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capnjuan said:
at the time, the Government declared cobalt - the 'co' in alnico - a Defense Department-only resource
Hey, that's interesting, I'd always assumed that ceramics appeared in guitar amps around '60 because they're cheaper, and I guess that explains at the same time why European amps still had alnicos into the 60's.

For me it's not just a matter of volume and punch with the ceramics though, I really like the sound of a blackface/silverface Fender amp with ceramics, and like the alnicos more in tweeds, funky smaller amps, and Voxes, amps you really don't expect to have punchy, tighter bass.
With a JBL D110 you get both - alnico compression ànd efficiency -I used to have a non-reverb Princeton with a JBL, great sound too.

And I'll confirm what the Cap'n says about Princeton Reverbs being killer recording amps - I did a whole album with one through different speaker setups. (wish it was mine!) A Princeton with a punchy speaker sounds almost like a baby Super Reverb, and is easier to record.
 

AlohaJoe

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So do you think the bass is generally tighter sounding with ceramics? I've pretty much given up on flatwounds due to what sounds to me like 'flubby' indistinct bass response. Less so on solid-bodies perhaps, but on archtops I can't seem to get a good tight distinct bass from flats. Would a ceramic speaker help counteract that?
 

Walter Broes

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You could generalize ceramics would have tighter low end, at least most ceramics available now, not the typical Oxfords ("Oxfarts") or CTS's Fender used in the 60's and 70's.

Also, most 10" alnico magnet speakers typically used in tube combos tend to be lower wattage, smaller voice coil and magnet speakers. There are exceptions to that too though, JBL D series speakers are alnico, but cleaner, tighter, and louder than most typical ceramic magnet guitar speakers - there's a lot more to a speaker than just the magnet type.
 

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Walter Broes said:
Hey, that's interesting, I'd always assumed that ceramics appeared in guitar amps around '60 because they're cheaper, and I guess that explains at the same time why European amps still had alnicos into the 60's.

Which also explains (maybe) why the TacoChamp has an alnico speaker.
Hecho en Mexico and all that.
 

capnjuan

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AlohaJoe said:
I've pretty much given up on flatwounds due to what sounds to me like 'flubby' indistinct bass response.
Hi AJ; I can't comment on the strings but depending on a person's needs and tastes, flubby or 'wooly' bass has been a knock on vacuum tubes and tube combo amps for a long time. It's one of the reasons for more closed-back combos and speaker cabinets (a la Guild) in the late 60s and maybe the general interest in the 'British' sound too.

walter said:
You could generalize ceramics would have tighter low end, at least most ceramics available now, not the typical Oxfords ("Oxfarts") or CTS's Fender used in the 60's and 70's.... Also, most 10" alnico magnet speakers typically used in tube combos tend to be lower wattage, smaller voice coil and magnet speakers...
Hi Walter; I agree - the mfrs make better speakers these days irrespective of magnet type. True; most older amps with 10" speakers were closer to 'student' than 'performance' amps - lower wattage and not designed to achieve clean ouput at high volume.

AJ: when you get a chance, this model usually has a paper label in it ID'ing the tube lineup and circuit; 5E2, 5F2, 6G2 and on on; what does yours say?

CJ
 

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mad dog

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If you're going to stick with alnico, try Ted Weber's 10A125 30 watter. It's his take on the old Jensen P10Q. At least in sets of three (as in the Clark Tyger), this one is as good as it gets IMO.

At the same time, I'm with Walter and Capn on the ceramic thing. Some of it's due to personal taste, in that I really like the sound of many ceramics, and it's also a matter of function. For gigging, the right ceramic can do wonders for being heard and cutting through. There are notable exceptions, such as the weber designed, Emi produced alnico 12s in Fenders '57 Tweed Twin RI. These things are amazing!!! But mainly, I find myself putting higher efficiency ceramics in old style, pre reverb amps. Many purists frown at this. Each to his own, but why? Back then, they used what they had, what they could afford to hit a price point. If the Weber and Eminence product lines were around in the 50s, do you think Leo Fender would have avoided them on aesthetic grounds? He used P10Rs in the mid 50s, then switched to P10Qs (when they become available just a bit later) for better performance. And so on. We live in a golden age of speakers.
 

capnjuan

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mad dog said:
If you're going to stick with alnico, try Ted Weber's 10A125 30 watter. It's his take on the old Jensen P10Q. At least in sets of three (as in the Clark Tyger), this one is as good as it gets IMO.
... Also good in sets of 1 ... :wink: Speaking of Jensen P10Q speakers, there's a pair of P12Qs on eBay (link to one of them) This '58 is ju$t about the same as Weber's $105 12A125 / P12Q with a few hours to go.
 

Walter Broes

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I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure I've seen 60's Jensens that were made in Italy as well - lots of manufacturing of that kind in Italy, that's nothing new.
 

capnjuan

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Hi W; could be - I don't know for sure. Sometime in the '60s, the Muter Company bought some / all of Jensen. They produced speakers badged like the one below; a mid/later 60s Jensen C15PS 'Special Design' that, according to the label, was made in Chicago:

speaker.jpg



My understanding is that 'Special Design' was Jensen/Muter code for 'we built it to a lower/cheaper specification' than Jensen/Muter's primary commerical standard; made/sold as OEM gear to Fender(?), Silvertone, and others. The one above came out of a late 60's Univox but I don't know if it's original or not.

Sometime later, Recoton bought Jensen/Muter and I guess for marketing and product identification reasons, continued to use the same style label but the speakers were made in Italy. Since these labels first appeared in the '60s and Recoton/Jensen Italian-made speakers were still bearing the same label in the '90s, it's possible you might have mistaken a 60's Jensen/Muter made-in-Chicago model for a Jensen/Recoton made-in-Italy model; I just don't know when Recoton entered the picture.

Default has a Special Design re-coned 4 ohm C12Q(?) but I don't know if he's hooked it up; I haven't connected the one above and have no idea what it sounds like. CJ
 
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