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john_kidder

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Cap'n:

I got exactly the same sort of QA message from Paypal, asking me how satisfied I was with their dispute resolution mechanism. I told them as best I could. It will be interesting to see if there is further response.
 

capnjuan

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We probably need another Topic in the Index to cover eBay; disease prevention and disputes management.

To bring you up to date on my efforts, I chased an S-100, got seller's ok to pick up in person before auction closed, sniped, and won the auction. Seller sent me an invoice in which he disclosed he didn't own the instrument and wanted me to independently contact the real owner. I tried to do so, he's a HS wanker with too much to do and little interest in selling guitar.

I've exchanged a number of emails with eBay to get invoice revoked / voided whatever. They kept asking for email; I kept saying look at invoice. I even printed, scanned, and forwarded the invoice as an attachment to one of the multiple eBay responses. They asked for the header, I sent them the header. They asked for the body; I copied the body and pasted it into yet another response.

The the :idea: went on. In one of the @^$& eBay replies, one of the people messing with this said that, due to security issues, they are precluded from opening email attachments. You had talked about sending in email-attached .jpegs of your amp.

GuildMark and many others make careers out of trying to protect servers and us wee people from mischievous stuff; can you imagine the chaos if eBay's systems were penetrated? Stolen vendor ID and account data, bidding on auctions under someone else's name and, better yet, winning and paying with their money via PayPal.

Although G-Mark's stuff is probably closer to James Bond, there is just no way on earth they can screen through the email that gets hung on their servers; not just the pre-auction Q&A but all the Disputes stuff too. This tar-baby exercise I'm going through is an example : 32 post-auction emails to clean it up.

I'm on my 4th eBay disputes handler and all of them are maddenly polite: "Gee Capnjuan, we're so disappointed to hear of your problem..." Moreover, they ask for header/body data because they may not be able to open Member's email accounts anymore than any of us could peek at someone else's eBay email.

I didn't try 'embedding' the invoice .jpeg within the email; I tried to attach it; some server protocols automatically detect the presence of embedded objects, remove them, and 'hang' them as attachments; you and G-Mark might know more about this. In any event, the next time I'm in for a hosing, I'll try 'embedding' v. 'attaching'.

Thanks again for your Tales of New Mexico; reminiscent of Death Valley Days on the telly way back when. As an aside, I bought my F212 from a retiring mining engineer in NM: fine man.

John
 

Guildmark

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You pretty much hit the nail on the head, John. eBay and any other outfit that does business on the internet is paranoid of security breaches involving personal sensitive information such as credit card numbers, social security numbers, account information, and anything else that might lead to identity theft and fraud. Their liability under federal and state regulations, as well as various contractual agreements with companies such as MasterCard and VISA, are much bigger risks for them than individual consumer complaints. Their public reputation might take a hit if they suffer a breach, but its the fines and settlements they are worried about.

The email attachments issue is probably not one of confidentiality as much as protection against malware, which is often delivered through attachments. Viruses are "rarely" transmitted via fax.

James Bond, indeed :oops:

Cheers, from mark...Guildmark.
 

capnjuan

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Not unlike the fiasco at TJ Maxx who is on the hook for several hundred million to Banks who offer users credit card protection against fraud. As if it weren't already bad enough, bungles like TJ Maxx wildly drive the Bank's cost of such 'protection' - hope TJ or its systems vendor (like you my dear friend or your employer) have wads of insurance.

The short of it is that anyone like John K and I who are hooked into eBay Disputes spend time with the eBay Joe Palooka punching bag. As long as you don't dis them outright, they'll be right back at you: "This is a serious problem and we are doing all that we can...." where 'doing all' is pretty much flinging email back and forth.

eBay: "Can you give us more detail?"
Person: "No, that's all I have"
eBay: "Thank you for the additional information...."

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
 

john_kidder

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All well said, gentlemen.

But: Paypal (not eBay) asked me to FAX pictures, and even then only after I asked how I could send additional information.

Clearly there may be problems with malware, viruses, etc., and both companies need to be able to protect their internal systems from such invasions. But I suspect that the Cap'n is closer to the truth - the systems both eBay and Paypal have in place are intended to LOOK like a real dispute resolution mechanism, when what they actually do is mask an astonishingly ineffective process.

Case in point: to submit information to Paypal, one must use their webform, which permits <=1000 characters per try. Although the header on the webform is the ID for the disputes, still each 1000 char. submission is (apparently) handled by an individual without reference to any others who might also be seeing parts of the overall puzzle. There is no way for the complainant to link the parts, no way to add new info, no way to track progress, etc.

I run a company that provides web-based software to manage boards of directors and associated documentation. If my customer support staff generated feedback mechanisms like that used by Paypal, they'd quickly be looking for work elsewhere. We actually do try to meet customers' needs - it seems very clear to me the Paypal and eBay, perhaps because of the liability issues Mark refers to, intend to provide the window-dressing of support without the reality.

I'm still trying to find a way to contact the relevant eBay and Paypal executives directly - I may have to buy a share or two and use the whistle-blower function, but I will get there.

Cheers,
 

capnjuan

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Seems to me JK that noise you hear isn't your head banging the wall...it may be opportunity knocking. You're correct, there is no field-sorting function that would enable all same transaction-related email to be funnelled to the same handler:

Any of these eBay Trust and Safety names ring a bell / my team:

Lottie,
Fleming,
Spence,
Tamrah,
Alfreda,
Ernest.

You ought to be going to them with a whopper database manager proposal of some kind...straighten the thing out...hire Mark to implement and let me and Graham have some inside skinny on a dead person's PayPal account so we can gear up....mostly kidding...sort of...


Fax...outrageous...how about some carbon copies or maybe a few mimeographs....yoweee; what'll it be sir; a horse or a buggy?



J
 

GuildFS4612CE

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Have any of you thought about outwitting the system instead of fighting it?

I.E.

Type out and print out the whole thing the old fashioned way and send the entire thing, part and parcel, via snail mail, so one actual person can read the whole actual thing?

Doesn't mean they'll respond... :twisted:
 

john_kidder

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Thought about it, and I'll do it, once I determine how to get to the appropriate person. I have names of the two senior execs in eBay and Paypal, need now to get either electronic or mail addresses.

I may just write the Chair of the Board, ask for assistance.
 

GuildFS4612CE

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Good Luck, John

I'd send "carbon" copies to each of them, with a cc at the bottom of the cover letter with those names noted.....if each one thinks others are watching.....

And I deeply sympathize with all of your predicaments. There seems to be a national, no make that international, epidemic of non-service.

It's not just Ebay and Paypal.

I bought an MBox 2 a year and a half ago with the hope of recording....so far, just hope. It was supposed to come with ProTools 7. Instead it came with an earlier version with a "free online upgrade".

The catch: the old version requires you to turn off hyperthreading in your so-equipped computer.

Well, after my computers Windows crashed after an unexpected automatic Microsoft update and the antivirus software went to war, and the wonderful Canadian 1-man tech department spent 3 whole days on the phone with me turning it back into a working computer (yes, there are still some companies who give old fashioned service, or at least one), I don't want to alter the computer.

So, I've spent a year and a half trying to get the Mbox mfr to "exchange" the software disc, for the one I should have received in the first place. No response to numerous emails to their customer service dept. Even spoke with the sales staff at NAMM. They said to email customer service :roll:

I'm in the process of trying the snail mail routine right now.

Then, there's a certain guitar mfr whose name starts with r-i-c.....

My 1980 620-12, right after it was set up, decided to self destruct - the tailpiece bracket shattered, fortunately while it was in the case and there were no fatalities. That was about a year ago. My luthier does business with them all the time. Still waiting. No bracket. I spoke to the sales staff at NAMM, Ric is in southern California, NAMM is in southern California, I asked them to bring one with them and I'd BUY it......they couldn't do that. But they said to tell the luthier to call "Kenny". He already knows that. They also told me "Kenny" handles all sales for the entire country....therein lies the problem. Sales, in that large company, is a 1-MAN DEPARTMENT. Emails to their customer service department generate an auto response stating their goal is to respond within 24 hours on a normal business day...define "normal". Maybe Kenny is in charge of that department as well.... :(

Too bad Hans doesn't carry parts for those :lol:

So, it's going to be snail mail for them as well, though I suppose, also being in southern California, I could spend $20 in gas I can't afford and risk a long drive in a 20 year old van to show up at their offices/factory and likely not get past the armed guards....though I could hand deliver the letter to a real live person :idea:

So the real problem, seems to be that everyone has downsized/replaced real live people with automation. And those that are left have no time, let alone incentive, to do anything except the bare minimum to retain their paychecks, which are no doubt minimal as well.

Think about this: Most "managers" hired now are 2 or 3 years out of university....and they hire even younger staff..... :shock:
 

Jeff

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GuildFS4612CE said:
Good Luck, John

It's not just Ebay and Paypal.

So the real problem, seems to be that everyone has downsized/replaced real live people with automation. And those that are left have no time, let alone incentive, to do anything except the bare minimum to retain their paychecks, which are no doubt minimal as well.

Think about this: Most "managers" hired now are 2 or 3 years out of university....and they hire even younger staff..... :shock:

I disagree on only one point, E bay, pay pal & their ilk are rolling in money. Check what the senior officers take out the top. It's henous !! They start spending much on service there's less left over to split up. This is the stuff bonuses are made of.

Excerpt from annual report listing E Bay executive compensation here, top 5 execs took 35 million out the top last year. directors another 3 mil + : Not too bad for an outfit that produces or purchases no product & maintains zero inventory.

http://ww3.ics.adp.com/streetlink_data/ ... 7_0041.htm

E bay Director Compensation here

http://ww3.ics.adp.com/streetlink_data/ ... 7_0048.htm


One of the Directors, had a run in with the Securities Exchange Commission over alleged improper accounting of stock options. Coughed up (disgorged) 3.5 million & a 150,000 civil penalty. Part of the deal was he didn't have to deny or admit guilt.

http://ww3.ics.adp.com/streetlink_data/ ... 7_0015.htm
Standard stuff, Publicly traded Corporate Annual Reports are public, I've read hundreds of em.

Your service requests may well be handled in Ireland or India.
My employer of 30+ years quietly transferred a key service department to Ireland. Company never said a word to anyone, I noticed I was talking to a lot of women with Irish lilts in their voices & after a couple weeks asked one of the "Service Techs" where the heck are you, reply: Donnegal, Ireland. The Irish Service Center worked pretty well till the back log of sticky cases requiring skill, experience & knowledge overwhelmed them, Time zone differential alone was a major issue.

Local guitar market has taken care of my needs except for the DC 5, & it had unmentioned finish crazing & a ratty case. I probably could have saved a hundred or so if it had been local.
 

GuildFS4612CE

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The minimal paychecks I was referring to were for the people who actually WORK in a company.... :twisted:

Hear you on the outsourcing.

Just heard back from Ric......part shipped. Signed:

Kenny, Sales Director/Customer Service Manager :shock:

And I thought I was joking :roll:
 

capnjuan

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You're right Jeff: Last year, eBay/PayPal had a net profit of $1.25 billion...about 20%; that will cover a lot of perks.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/in ... ymbol=ebay

My nephew is entering the job market with a BA but without a technical orientation.

Juan's Nephew: "Hi sir, do you have a job for me?"
Employer: "What can you do?"
Juan's Nephew: "Well, just about anything"
Employer: "Good; put this headset on and handle some complaints about faulty toasters over the phone..."

Like our house sometimes; there's food but nothing to eat.

You were fortunate GuildFS4612CE to get one-to-one hand-holding w/ your crash and fix-'em-up...chance of getting it again...?
 

GuildFS4612CE

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You were fortunate GuildFS4612CE to get one-to-one hand-holding w/ your crash and fix-'em-up...chance of getting it again...?

I really WORKED for this one.

I'll let you know if I get the software :lol:

If I do, then maybe I should go into business.

Anything would pay better than performing. :roll:
 

capnjuan

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Hi John: I got an email from eBay this morning addressing my 'seller-didn't-own-what-he-sold' matter. Details over at my original post hootin' and hollerin' about an eBay S-100. Anyway, it's done.

John
 

john_kidder

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Just read the story on the other thread. What old-fashioned good clean fun all around.

Now what was it that my old economics textbooks said about monopolies?
 

capnjuan

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Yeah....talk about Time Sinks.....d*mn 'Black Hole' it is.
 
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