Guild Thunderbird Amp

john_kidder

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sfIII said:
cab is the Beige colored, S/N 4592

Wonderful, thanks. Mine is 4562 - sisters on the production line, they were. Are both speakers Jensens? PM me a suggested price? Pictures? I can't do anything until the Paypal dust settles, but this might be just a perfect option.

And thanks again to everyone for all these great tips, offers of help, and general good wishes. This is a real community, and I'm very happy to be a part of it (by way of contrast, see Hans' thread about being tossed off the Fender FDP).
 

john_kidder

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Took the Thunderbird chassis out of the remaining bits of cabinet today. I'll be packing it off to my favourite amp tech later in the week. With my naked eye, no skills and no tools, I see:

  • 12AX7 tube in socket on PC board 012003 feels loose in the socket, but will not unplug
    2.75 Kohm, 20W resistor in power stage has large chunk out of ceramic casing, base is cracked
    insulation on footswitch wire is cut - could explain tremolo o/s?
Now please inform me, oh wiser heads, what else I might ask him to look for? Now that it's out of the cabinet, are there any routine tasks that should be done now (in addition to cleaning, installing grounded power cord, etc.?) Are there standard tune-up operations that might be done now? Standard diagnostics? Particular things to examine on older Guilds?

And, a question that may sound idiotic, but let me try it anyway:
  • What about putting 2 1/4" stereo plugs on the footswitch cable for tremolo & reverb, and mounting 2 jacks in the chassis, each in line w/a toggle switch, such that if the footswitch is plugged in it bypasses the switches, but if the footswitch is not plugged in the toggle switches control the effects? I'm no fan of hardwired accessories on anything - I do want to be able to use the footswitch when it's handy, but I'd also like to control the effects without the long dangly bits.
Thanks, as always. More of an adventure than I'd hoped for, so far, but I'm always open to learning new things.
 

matsickma

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Hi All,

It sounds like SFIII cab and speakers would be the best choice. The CTS 8" is standard and plenty good for its intended application. The Jensen, if it is the brownish painted one (Concerto?) with the magnet cover, is a great speaker.

John, You would normally want a Powere supply cap job and cleaning/lube of all the pots.

Also, the way you described the reverb tone sounds very unusual. When you hear the reverb, I am assuming you have the reverb output hooked up to a speaker and it sounds very echoish. Does it have any volume or is it very low level? If it has volume then you need to turn the Reverb volume down to around 10 to 11 o'clock. If everything is hooked up and it is low in volume you may have broken reverb springs or wires breaks at the reverb tank mini transformers. Look closly to see if the springs are ok and the wires are good. You probably will need a mirror to slide down into the chassis to see the springs and transformer wires. Remember to unplug the amp and use the one hand rule when sticking you hand/mirror in there.

Also, try the foot switch to see if when the reverb is off a clean sound comes out of the reverb speaker.

M
 

matsickma

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Hi John,

With regards to the footswitch...my bias it to keep the origional design. I always though it pretty cool that the switch was hard wired.

You can manually adjust the Reverb vol and Trem Strength so you don't have to switch it off to change the effect.

One final thing...Inside your old cabinet there should be a small compartment that is used to hold the footswitch in place. There should be a small metal clip than snaps into place to lock the footswith in place. I beleive this little spring lock mechanism is held in place with two small screws. It is about an inch long and maybe 3/4 inch wide. I recommend you remove this and save it until you get your amp re-packaged. Also if you ever plan to get rid of it let me know as I would be interested in buying it from you.

M
 

john_kidder

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matsickma said:
Inside your old cabinet there should be . . . a small metal clip to lock the footswitch in place.

That's what that little clip is for!! Might reduce my desire to get rid of long dangly bits if there's a convenient place to stash the footswitch, all right.
 

capnjuan

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Hi John K:

My 8" speaker is a Jensen Syntox ceramic, not alnico, Concert Series (click pic to see speaker codes).

[IMG:800:614]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r106/capnjuan/jensen8in.jpg[/img]

It came out of a Gibson Maestro GA1RT; it wasn't stock. It sounds fine but not as fine as the Celestion G8L that's in that amp now. More on the amp that it's sitting on in this post below. Yours for shipping au Canada if you choose.

Power Supply: Matsickma is right about the power supply; it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up; caps / power resistor / bias diode and cap if present; any cost savings by just picking at it will be foregone down the road when an original part fails. This is particularly true of the power supply caps; old units either short out or leak acid...either condition can toast everything - whatever you have, they have to go.

Loose 12AX7: Do not yank it out. Bathe it in electronic contact cleaner - not WD40 which leaves a gunky residue - and gently wiggle it back and forth to break the 'weld' caused by corrosion between at least one pin and its corresponding pin socket. If you mess up and leave one of the pins in the socket, it's a 2-hour bench task to disconnect and drill out the old socket, install a new one, and re-wire it. Depending on rates, that move could cost you $100 by itself.

Plate resistors: The pre-amp tubes operate on high voltage at the plates. The constant exposure to HV over the years will cause the plate resistors to drift in value, sound crappy, and pose a risk to reliability. Each 12AX7 has 2 plate resistors; wired to pins 1 and 6 below:

[IMG:168:168]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r106/capnjuan/12AX7schmatic.jpg[/img]
For sound and service reasons, these have to be replaced. The Guild T1 RVT uses metal film resistors everywhere including plates; they are arguably quieter than carbon composition. If you want spunk (Fender, Gibson), use carbon compositions, if you want clean, use metal films.

Multi-section caps: If your amp has at least one smooth aluminum cylinder 1 1/2 to 3 inches high in the general area of the power transformer, then your amp uses the old-style Sprague/Mallory multi-section caps; one section for the outuput plates, others for screens, pre-amp sections as so on.

If you replace these, you'll have to make a decision about whether you want to honor the original design or overcome some of it's commercially-induced limitations. Multi-section caps were a convenience to mfrs; several caps in one package, save space, save time installing and wiring.

Ted Weber makes and sells replacements (scroll to bottom): https://taweber.powweb.com/store/capord.htm

Unfortunately, the problem with multi-section caps is that capacitance and voltage handling are directly proportional to the physical space consumed by the package; if you want at least one 40uf section (for the output plates), then you are normally limited to two other sections; you can get 4 sections in one package but the largest section might only be 20uf.

There are some new and some NOS multi-sections. NOS means it's been sitting around for some time full of an electrolytic paste similar to what's in a battery. You might want to ask yourself if you'd buy a 40-year old battery.

In addition to smoothing DC ripple, the PS caps provide a resevoir of energy when called upon by both signal amplitude and pitch; if you want more bass and punch in the output, then you'll have to have more capacitance in the power supply than called for in the original design.

Since your amp, thanks to the seller, won't exactly qualify as a 'Mint' or collectible, you'll have to ask yourself whether the objective of your build-back will be to have an original-as-possible copy of the amp or one that is reliable and robust. There is something of an analogy between amps and rehabbing older cars; am I trying to have a faithful copy of something or do I want the amp's circuit to perform at its maximum?

Unless you give the amp back to the seller, you will be the owner of a FrankenGuild anyway. The Jensen speaker in the pic is sitting on an early 1960s Gibson GA18. I re-built its power supply including increased capacitance, NOS one and two watt carbon composition resistors everywhere I could fit them in and NOS carbon comp resistors every place else, new pots, OFHC speaker feeds, fresh lineup of JJs, and a new 10" Weber alnico.

Unlike your amp, mine came in a solid, very fine tweed cabinet. Nevertheless I wanted to give the amp's circuit a chance to perform as well as its design would allow and if that meant wandering away from design intent (principally in power supply capacitance) so be it.

It now does what it was designed to do absolutely beautifully; rock-a-billy, country, vintage R&R, and blues. I don't care if it's not perfectly stock or whether it 'beats' a Fender Princeton; all I care about is how it sounds, whether it's reliable, and if it works to its best ability.

I have no comments on your switching schemes other than to say that you may need to resolve other issues first; are you keeping it? do you want it authentic or enhanced? and, when stabilized, does it generate enough quality signal to justify the effort/cost of additional switching.

Good luck,

JH
 

john_kidder

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capnjuan said:
you'll have to make a decision about whether you want to honor the original design or overcome some of it's commercially-induced limitations; . . . your amp . . . won't qualify as a collectible, ask yourself whether the objective is an original-as-possible copy or one that is reliable and robust.; give the amp's circuit a chance to perform as well as its design would allow and if that mean wandering away from design intent so be it; I don't care if it's not perfectly stock or whether it 'beats' a Fender Princeton; all I care about is how it sounds, whether it's reliable, and if it works to its best ability.


Your posts are full of great information. Thank you, thank you - the time it takes just to type such messages is enough, but of course that pales in comparison to the experience transferred - you and Mike are such founts of knowledge, and Howard's generous offer of assistance is terrific. Enormously helpful.

Your thoughts on the rebuild are also right on the money (for me). I know this is no collectible - I want great tone and robustness. I'm going to visit my amp tech tonight with the chassis (and all your notes, gentlemen) and make some decisions about what's best to do. I'm talking with SFIII about his cab and speakers, or I may just build a new one with solid materials and my rudimentary joinery. Either way, the collective wisdom here and the willingness, even eagerness, to help is just invaluable.
 

capnjuan

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Do you have a schematic for this amp? Is there one glued inside (what's left of) the cabinet? If yes; can you copy, scan, and post it?. I haven't been able to find one anywhere.

If it was me, I'd take up SFIII's offer on the cab / speakers pronto; get the amp stablized and upgraded if you choose.

If you like what you hear, then get some cypress, birch, whatever and make yourself the coolest cabinet you can; no matter how crappy you think it is, we're all going to applaud whatever you do anyway.

Finally you might want to think of the cabinet as the crowning achievement; don't bang out a cabinet in anger; because you got hosed by a scum-sucker and you need a place to stick the amp.

Make it because you overcame the problem and your now great-sounding, custom amp deserves a cabinet to match:

Forget this:
[IMG:411:233]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r106/capnjuan/Lark.jpg[/img]

This is what I think you should be after:
[IMG:565:263]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r106/capnjuan/Studebaker.jpg[/img]








You are most welcome and good luck with your project.

John H
 

matsickma

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Hi John,

I also think if you can hook up with Howards cab and speakers you can return this amp back to origional. Make sure you keep your origional amp label.

I played around with a pair of Thunderbird amps like yours tonight and got some info about your Reverb. I also discovered that I incorrectly reported info about the Reverb channel in a earlier comment so need to correct on that.

First the good news: As discussed earlier the Thunderbird has a seperate amp and output for the DRY clean sound and one for the WET Reverb. I was investigating your comment that you hear reverb but it sounds like echo.

In the past I never really listened to the Reverb output by its self before. Since the Thunderbird amp has the seperate outputs for the DRY and WET I didconnected the DRY output and listened just to the WET. Sure enough it sounded very similar to the way you described it. The sound throws you off because it is saturated in reverb.

When the DRY + WET speakers are on together and since the speakers are close to each other the two sounds blend together beautifully. The psudo reverb effect can be heard when you play in front of the amp.

So although it may be misleading the saturate echo sound is normal for the WET reverb speaker. So you may not have anything wrong at all with the reverb.

The next think I examined is you comment about high noise from the amp. I found that the quietest channel is the one with Tremelo. The noise was very noticalbe if the Volume on the non-Tremelo was turned up-even a little. When I turned the unused non tremelo channel all the way down the amp became quiet again. Interesting, when playing through the non-tremelo channel the noise was behaved. So you should make sure the volume is turned down on the unused channels. (I suspect the input either doesnot have a shorting jack installed or it is not functioning properly.

Finally I need to report on incorrect information I posted. It looks like my memory about the functioning of the Reverb foot switch was incorrect. :oops:

I should have double checked my facts before posting but didn't and incorrectly stated that a Thunderbird amp has the Reverb sound out of the small speaker when the Reverb is switched ON and a Clean sound when it is switched OFF. Well that is incorrect. When the Reverb is switched off the little speaker DOES NOT have any sound. Some how my memory failed me here. However I checked the hardware tonight and know first hand my correced statement is true.

M
 

john_kidder

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M:

took the chassis to a good local tube amp tech last night - I mentioned your impression about the reverb channel being used for a clean signal when reverb was not switched on - my initial tests had not confirmed, and when Kirk walked me through the schematics it showed that the switch did in fact cut the signal right off. Small issue, no sweat.

Managed to pull the sticky tube w/o damage, looks as if it was just pushed hard sideways by the speaker grill when the cab collapsed, bent pins and locked it halfway in - halfway out of the socket, so it was very loose.

I also passed on to him all the many comments from this board, and invited him to join the Forum. Perhaps we'll see him here one of these days.

Just got pictures of SFIII's cabinet, will evaluate when I'm out of this seminar.

Cheers,
 

john_kidder

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Getting a little impatient waiting for Paypal's response to my claim for the broken Thunderbird, so I sent the following note to Customer Service:
  • ------------------------
    subject: Awaiting decision on Claim
    Additional Information: '

    I am waiting for your Dispute Resolution folks to advise me on progress of my claim, filed March 11 2007.

    The latest news I have is from that date, stating that "We have received a
    statement from the seller disagreeing with your claim." I have not seen,
    nor had a chance to respond to any information the seller might have
    provided. Also, I have not been asked to, nor do I see means to provide to Paypal the photographic evidence in support of the claim.

    Have I missed some important step in the process?

    Thanks,
    John Kidder

Paypal got back to me promptly, with this:
  • Dear John Kidder,

    Please forward to us any information you like concerning the case as it is still under review.

    If you are sending photos they will need to be faxed to us at 1-402-537-5760 thank you. Make a cover sheet and add the following case id number to the cover page pp 261 617 292


    Sincerely,
    Lee
    PayPal Community Support
    PayPal, an eBay Company

1: FAX photos? Unbelievable - this company handles billlions of dollars in on-line transactions, is owned by eBay with all sorts of photo handling capacity, and they want FAXED (=low-res, b/w) pictures?
2: there is no way to find this information on the Paypal dispute resolution pages - no means to review the complete file, nothing to encourage a complainant to send extra information anywhere, no contact ID, nothing at all.

Might one think that dispute resolution is not actually encouraged, that they'd prefer to just let it all lie?

As an old Trekkie friend of mine used to say, "Piss me up, Sporky".
 

capnjuan

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:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

eBay/PayPal fees are paid by sellers; 'He who pays the piper calls the tune'

Considering the number of transactions and the mutual dependence on UPS / FedEx / USPS for conveyance, if the 'Complaint Incidence Rate' (I made this term up) is, say, half of 1%, then...

Speaking of Star Trek; eBay is trying to Obey the Prime Directive; not get involved in the transactions of its sellers any more than it absolutely has to.
 

Graham

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Sounds similar to shipping and insurance comapnies and such, where there is no delay what so ever taking the fees for said services but the resolution process has yet to be fully developed.
 

capnjuan

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Back in the 1950s, one of the cruise lines used to advertise something like:

"Getting there is half the fun". Well dressed dude, sleek chick...and so on.

With eBay and freight, "Getting (it) there is half the fun (risk)" as if the risk to which buyers are eposed by sleazista eBay and Craigslist sellers wasn't bad enough.

I got hosed by a seller/packer of a Guild amp; something about them ... and the fact that some of the cabinets weren't the best quality. There are visible improvements to the later 60s models but the middish-60s crop...
 

john_kidder

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Well, well. After all sorts of bull, after faxing photos and sending multiple emails through Paypal's 1000-character boxes, after getting lots of little messages from any number of people (none with a return address, of course), and after a mind-numbing lack of clarity and an archaic and very badly designed procedure, I missed an unknown deadline and my claim was cancelled, just like that.

After faxing 18 pages of photos, the seller was convinced to refund my money if I returned the amp "in original condition" - the seller would get to make the judgment as to whether or not it was in that condition. I protested to Paypal that the seller had already said that my claim was "fradulent", that his feedback showed that he had stiffed another buyer (same deal, shipping damage and non-original condition) and that for me to ship it back in good faith and wait for my money would be absurd. In the middle of processing that information (sent by fax and in 1000-character blocks), the claim was just cut off because I was deemed to have failed to respond to the offer. Now the claim number is locked out of the Paypal system.

I'm going to send various emails to higher-ups at eBay and Paypal about this absurd process. Rather than being my normal oppositional and obnoxious self, I'm going to try to suggest that eBay seems to be having difficulty getting the Paypal culture to merge with theirs. It is the most common cause of failure for mergers/acquisitions. In this case, we have eBay doing (as I will phrase it) a superb job of continuously providing new tools and facilities to buyers and sellers, making a revolutionary market work with cool new technical tools. On the other hand, we have Paypal, actually requesting that eBay users take their high-res colour photos and submit them via fax (how many of us even have a fax anymore? - it's like not accepting your mail unless it's been typed on an IBM Selectric). And the amazing Paypal communications system is from the dark ages. Why does the subsidiary Paypal not yet meet eBay's excellent standard, the world wants to know? Who is responsible for this failure to come up to speed, and for the harm done to the credibility, etc., of the whole enterprise and of the market itself? And on and on like that.

The two individuals are Rob Chesnut, senior vice president of Trust and Safety for eBay Inc., and Dan Levy, Senior Director of Consumer Protection, Paypal. Anyone got a line on email addresses? - if not, I'll use the fax in accordance with Paypal's instructions.

In the meantime, the speakers and grille are still OK, and the head's in service now to be recapped and biased. I'm going to reconstruct the cabinet. Fir plywood, glued and screwed and braced, to original dimensions. I stripped the old bits of tolex off the broken cabinet, and can use them all except the thoroughly rotten piece on the bottom - it's not very visible, and I'll replace it with some black tolex I have for repairing old cases. The metal trim will clean up fine and go back on. I've saved the original label on a couple of inches of particle-board, which I'll inset into the new cabinet, and add a label below for the rebuilt cabinet.

Then a new Jensen for the 12", and I'll be rocking. I'd better be - it's been a while.
 

capnjuan

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Ouch!

PayPal: I agree that the 'buyer/seller-friendly' nature of eBay's business model isn't matched by PayPal. Agree further that in the tech-savvy eBay business model, it's incredible that anyone would communcate with faxes although I suspect they need hard-copy to build a file with; otherwise the PayPal recipient would be forced to download / print / save way too many pics.

Further, active participation in dispute resolution means PayPal gets the tar-baby stuck to them and, after all, their first duty is to themselves and then their fee-paying sellers. No duty to buyers can be imputed to eBay/PayPal other than to 'look into it'. Good luck with your high-minded approach however I respectfully submit it won't get you any farther than just yelling....


Speaker: Depending on how far out of pocket you want to go on the speaker, you ought to consider Weber Speakers http://www.tedweber.com/, or if they don't make one with enough power handling, then a Celestion. The new / old-style Jensens haven't reviewed all that well and their perceived quality limitations are reflected in their deeply-discounted prices.

I'll take that as a 'no thanks' on the multi-section cap and power resistors.

Good luck with the amp!

cj
 

john_kidder

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capnjuan said:
suspect they need hard-copy to build a file with . . .
Good luck with your high-minded approach however I respectfully submit it won't get you any farther than just yelling . . .

Anyone who "needs" hard copy does so by policy choice - there is tons of legal precedent about electronic materials - my company gives organizations the ability to maintain all their board records, even to sign resolutions, electronically. And while I don't really hope for satisfaction any more, I do want to try to get a response at the corporate level.

capnjuan said:
you ought to consider Weber Speakers http://www.tedweber.com/, or if they don't make one with enough power handling, then a Celestion
Good thought - I may stick with the originals when I get going for a little while, and then cruise for replacements.


capnjuan said:
I'll take that as a 'no thanks' on the multi-section cap and power resistors.
My amp tech seemed happy to go with the standard replacement parts - I'm just not savvy enough to quibble. But thanks anyway.

And thanks for all the input to this - there's just nothing like knowledge freely shared - it's a very hopeful contrast to "intellectual property".
 

capnjuan

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PayPal's 'business' isn't disputes resolution...it's disputes avoidance. There is no financial point in upsizing to manage docs electronically when the last thing eBay/PayPal wants is to load up on IT expense and staff/payroll whose function is to get in between warring sellers and buyers.

Despite its representations, eBay is more like a gambling house where the dealers are all independent contractors and each player (bidder) plays at their own risk; the player is playing against the independent dealer and not the House.

The 'Disputes' apparatus is there to assure players that there is a means to address bona fide differences. Otherwise, there's nothing that indicates that eBay stands behind or guarantees the integrity of its 'dealers' any more than there is a corresponding sign at any pismire Flea Market. It sucks big time....

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
 

capnjuan

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A little more eBay-kicking. I have this odd-ball thing where seller actually said he didn't own what he auctioned off but sent me an invoice telling me to get together with the real owner and pay them and make arrangements to pick up guitar.

I sent eBay my 'Disputes' message including the text of the seller's I-don't-own-it remarks from the invoice and told eBay that such remarks appear on eBay's system-generated invoice. I got a reply from eBay asking me to forward the email in which seller disclosed lack of ownership. I replied that the information was in the invoice, not an email.

Shortly after, I got one of those eBay QA/QC emails asking me to tell them about my Customer Satisfaction of their handling of this matter; told them what happened. Did you ever get one of those 'please answer a few questions' emails? Might be a new thing; some way to gather statistics on how well the Disputes Dudes are doing.

I'm only trying to get them to rescind the invoice; since the seller doesn't control the item, no point in paying. eBay's final question was about my recent gain/loss of trust in the eBay marketplace. Was thinking of my prior experiences and yours too; told them it had eroded.

eBay is fine so long as it's fine...have a bad experience and it's useless ... and costly.
 
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