Guild Thunderbird Amp

matsickma

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
4,280
Reaction score
1,028
Location
Coopersburg, PA
Message to John Kidder:

Hi John,

Have you received your Thunderbird Amp from NH? Did it arrive in good condition? Do you like? :D or :(

M
 

john_kidder

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
3,103
Reaction score
6
Location
Ashcroft, BC, Canada
Problems shipping, injuries to seller, on and on go the reasons for delay.

I should get it by the middle of next week, I will report then.
 

john_kidder

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
3,103
Reaction score
6
Location
Ashcroft, BC, Canada
Thunderbird was finally delivered Tuesday, I picked it up yesterday.

Disaster. I quote from the message I sent to the shipper:

  • Got the Guild Thunderbird amp today from my Point Roberts warehouse. The cabinet is broken beyond repair at nearly every joint, and the speaker mounting had collapsed into the interior taking a couple of the tubes out of the chassis, other tubes are twisted in their sockets, and the mount for one has been pushed up into the chassis. It does power up, although the output is lower in volume and substantially noisier than the other Guild amps of similar vintage that I own. I attach a small sampling of bunch of pictures I’ve taken, so that you can see what’s up.

    I initially thought that this might all have been just of a result of the inadequate packaging. A single unreinforced cardboard box, with a sheet or two of bubble wrap and a few peanuts might have been suitable packing for something like a suitcase full of clothes, but you can’t ship an amp that way and not expect it to get broken. The box has to have its own structural integrity, or else the inevitable tossing and banging will put stress on the cabinet itself. In this case, the outside cardboard skin was just enough to hold it all in roughly the same rectangular shape it originally had, but nowhere near enough to prevent it from being broken.

    But it’s not just a result of the packaging. On closer examination, as you’ll see from the photos, the cabinet seems to have been in rough shape for a long time. Far beyond the “cosmetic” damage you mentioned in the listing.

    [list:7f004]There are screws missing all over the metal binding,
    the dovetail joints are so weak they were already crumbly (now they’re just gone),
    part of the bottom board of the cabinet has already crumbled away at the front,
    there are actually some long nails driven in from the bottom to attempt to hold the left side of the cabinet together where there's no wood to work with,
    the tolex covering on the bottom has obviously been very wet, as you can see from the mold spots on the photos,
    there’s even a wood bug on the bottom board.
It looks to me as if the amp may have been sitting somewhere damp long enough for the particle board, which does not like water, to soak up enough moisture to start to fall apart at the bottom and to be at least weakened throughout. I have no idea how much of the actual breakage might have occurred before you shipped it, and how much is a result of shipment, but the combination is a thoroughly broken amp.[/list:u:7f004]

So I've asked him for all my cash back, including shipping, and if he wants me to send the bits back to him I'm going to charge him for my time and materials to brace the remaining bits of cabinet and ship it some sort of a crate.
 

matsickma

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
4,280
Reaction score
1,028
Location
Coopersburg, PA
Hi John,

I am truely sorry to hear about the condition of the amp. I was waiting for your report. I always worry about shipping an amp. I had problems in the past with shipping a Thunderbird, albeit nothing like your experiance.

If for any reason you end up keeping the amp I will provide as much advice and guidence on getting her working. I beleive I have a schematic. If you do trash the cabinet save the front grill and the back panels and some of the beige tolex (it can come in handy). You may be able to reconstruct a cabinet around the electronics. Were the speakers and reverb tank damaged?

Hope the seller own's up to there responsibilities.

Mike
 

john_kidder

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
3,103
Reaction score
6
Location
Ashcroft, BC, Canada
Mike:

I'm upset of course, partly because of your great recommendation and enthusiasm after I purchased the amp. I was so looking forward to plugging in the Nightbird and getting down to basics.

The back panels can be saved, for sure - they're about the only wooden part that has any integrity. The grill cloth and logo are fine. It's a pretty simple cabinet, and I think I could build a new one to the original dimensions. The tolex is mostly shot - it's already been replaced by woodgrain mactac on the side panels, and the bottom piece is moldy beyond cleaning.

It's hard to get a handle on the electronics, with my limited skills and experience. But I've just been playing the main speaker out through my 2x10 enclosure, and I don't get a reverb effect (although I can hear it open up when I switch the reverb on, and some noise appears on the reverb speaker). Seems very noisy and low overall volume compared to either the Thunder-1 or the Thunderbass.

Once the seller decides what to do, I'll either send him back the bits or do further diagnosis and planning around a reconstruction. Electronics I'll have to leave to my amp tech - diagnosis first, cost estimates, etc. I have a schematic, thanks, so I'm OK on that score. I presume I'll be able to make a solid cabinet from 3/4" or 1" ply, routed locking corners, glued and screwed, not sure I'll be able to find that pinky/beige tolex - seems pretty scarce on the websites I looked at. In any event, I seem certain to be in for another $2-300 minimum before I have a working amplifier, and then it will be a recover in a rebuilt cab - might be a fine machine, but that's hardly the way to create market value.

I am overall mightily disapppointed. You should have seen the package - one flimsy cardboard box, a piece of bubble wrap on top and one on the bottom, some cardboard wadded up and stuffed inside the cabinet. Given the rotting wood (there's even a dead woodlouse on the bottom panel), no metal trim, etc., and the normal banging about when shipping any heavy item, the whole thing was pretty much disassembled in the box when I cut the cardboad off.

What a pain this all is. The seller did have maximum Paypal coverage, so I'll look for help there if he doesn't come through directly.

I'll keep you posted.
 

matsickma

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
4,280
Reaction score
1,028
Location
Coopersburg, PA
Ok John,

Lets see what happens with the seller. If you end up with the amp I may be able to help. Assuming it worked before it shipped I am sure it can be up and working again.

With regards to the cabinet Guild really built a crummy cabinet for this amp model. By the way the woodgrain sticky paper on the sides ARE origional.

Guild got a lot better at making amp cabinets in the following years.

Mike
 

capnjuan

Gone But Not Forgotten
Gone But Not Forgotten
Joined
Nov 29, 2006
Messages
12,952
Reaction score
4
Location
FL
Hi John:

Sorry to hear about your amp.

You might want to consider putting your $/energy into the electronics first; duct tape the cabinet together for the time being.

Unless you are just interested in a ground-up restoration, you could wind up with a terrific cabinet containing an 'average' amp.

Alternatively, good luck dealing with the seller; eBay? Craigslist?


john
 

matsickma

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
4,280
Reaction score
1,028
Location
Coopersburg, PA
Hi John,

Some basic items to check out on the amp...What is the state of the tube socket that pushed into the chassie. This amp is one of the very few tube amps that Guild made with a circuit board. I believe all the tube sockets at attached to circuit boards so you will need to visually inspect inside the housing for any damage.

If that looks good then do the following: Hook up the main speaker output to a speaker and then the Reverb output to another speaker. This particular Guild Thunderbird amp has a circuit similar but not identical to the Thunder 1 RVT. The difference is with the Thunderbird is that when you switch the reverb ON the reverb channel is live with reverb. When the reverb is switched OFF a clean signal will come through the Reverb output. (That feature is different from the Thunder1 RVT where the reverb speaker turns completely off when the footswitch is switched off.) Also, make sure you adjust the reverb volume up.

The test you are running is to determine which path of the reverb amp channel is functioning correctly.

Let me know your results.

Mike
 

john_kidder

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
3,103
Reaction score
6
Location
Ashcroft, BC, Canada
The seller responded to my Paypal claim as follows:

  • This is a fradulant claim. This item was received 5 days earlier but then became broken 5 days later. I accurately described it as I used the same words A proffessional musisian who inspected it and tested it used. I will forward a signed and notorized statement from this man if necessary. I believe the damage was caused after receiving it and that is why it took several days before a problem arised.

Actually, there was no delay between picking it up and sending him photos, but that's of no concern. I see from the seller's feedback that he mostly sells antique clocks, and that the one negative feedback in the last couple of months is from a person who bought a stereo tuner/amplifier combo, and reported "Tuner broken in shipping, packed in a few peanuts, seller is confrontational, I give up". We'll see how Paypal responds - I gave a pretty detailed description of the rotting wood, bugs and all, and of the packaging.

I'll check the reverb circuitry when I get home - it looks as if I own the amp, for better or worse, so I guess I'll have to figure out what I'm going to do.

Thanks for the help and suggestions so far - you can bet I'll be looking for more.
 

sfIII

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2005
Messages
386
Reaction score
0
Location
Jamestown, KY
Guild Total
59
I just happen to have a ThunderBird cabinet.. One with two speakers. No electronics.. I had hoped that the electrical part would show up on ebay some day, but john if you can use it and we can work out a deal, its yours.

Howard
 

matsickma

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
4,280
Reaction score
1,028
Location
Coopersburg, PA
Hi Howard,

What type of cabinet is it? Is it Beige/woodgrain or Black? Does it hold 1-12" and 1-8" or 2-12"?

I just ran down and checked the amp dimensions and it looks like all the Thunderbird amps have an chassis that are 24 inches wide so the Beige/woodgrain model (1967) can fit in either of the later (1968 or 1969-70) Black tolex models. A little custom work may be required but it shouldn't be much.

Actually it woulkd be pretty coll to put the guts of the 1967 model in a later cabinet. The later cabinets are top grade of construction quality.

Also, a Thunderstar and Superstar cabinet can be made to work.

M
 

capnjuan

Gone But Not Forgotten
Gone But Not Forgotten
Joined
Nov 29, 2006
Messages
12,952
Reaction score
4
Location
FL
Sorry John:


My hard feelings for eBay sellers is a function of having been hosed by a skin-mag peddler who sold me a DOA T1 RVT...I took my complaint to the eBay/PayPal; the vendor filed a 'counter-complaint' which, electronically, snuffed my dispute.

I've bitched about the event ad nauseum here and piss on shyster eBay vendors when they show themselves.

I'm thinking about learning how to 'get over it'...maybe take a few lessons or something...I wonder if Mel Bay has a book on it...

There was some discussion here a while back about maintaining a 'Sticky' thread identifying sellers like yours and mine. Not sure what happened to that topic; I think it's a good idea.


That your amp passes a signal, no matter how grungy, is a good thing. Looks like there might be a solution to the cabinet problem right here.


I looked but couldn't find a schematic for it; does the amp have 6L6 or 6GW8 ouputs?

Good luck.
 

matsickma

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
4,280
Reaction score
1,028
Location
Coopersburg, PA
John's amp should have a pair of 7591A tubes like many of the Ampeg amps. This is an outstanding souning tube at low or high volume. It should also have a 16gwb for the reverb output but I'll check when I get home for sure.

Note: The last Thunderbird model (there were three) made around the time of the SuperStar amp used 6L6's. If your ran a SuperStar through a 2-12 open cabinet it would sound like the last model Thunderbird amp.

M
 

capnjuan

Gone But Not Forgotten
Gone But Not Forgotten
Joined
Nov 29, 2006
Messages
12,952
Reaction score
4
Location
FL
John K's Thunderbird (or one like it).........once upon a time (Photo from the webpage of guitar player Big John Bates, 1963 model):

[IMG:144:128]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r106/capnjuan/Thunderbird.jpg[/img]

Looks like the sides were originally covered in wood grain stick-'em ...framed with metal trim. Unless structural as well, the trim would have served to conceal the edge of the wood / particle board side and prevent the lumpy corner caused by trying to fold the sheet goods over the corner.



from http://www.ggjaguar.com/t1s.htm:
The Thunder series amps were Guild’s most popular amplifiers and were available in the mid to late-1960s. These included the Thunder 1 (in four different speaker configurations), the Thunder 1 Reverb, the Thunderbird, the Super Thunderbird, the Thunderstar, the Thunderstar Bass, and the Thunderbass. The Thunder series designs were a departure from what Guild had been doing in the 1950s and early 1960s. The differences were cosmetic as well as in the completely new circuits. The Thunder 1 amps were designed to have a very clean sound that would not be prone to distortion. While that may be appealing to jazz guitarists it was less desirable since some harmonic richness was sacrificed. Hence, the Thunder 1 amps tend to sound “Hi-Fi” when they are directly compared to their contemporaries from Fender, Ampeg and even other Guilds. Oddly, Guild chose to use power tubes that were commonly used in old table radios rather than instrument amplifiers. This could partially account for the clean sound of the Thunder 1 amps.

"...used in old tables radios..." The author above is referring to the odd-ball 6GW8 tube used in the Thunder 1 and Thunder 1 RVTs.

More about these fine amps from our Board member Jay Pilzer
http://www.guildguy.com/fgp6.html

This particular article discusses later models using 7591 outputs and pc boards in lieu of 6GW8s and point to point wiring. The article goes on to talk about the expense of 7591s suggesting they haven't tried buying NOS 6GW8s recently.


More's the pity...
 

john_kidder

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
3,103
Reaction score
6
Location
Ashcroft, BC, Canada
7591 output tubes; 1x12", 1x8" speakers

I pulled, cleaned terminals, and reseated all the tubes last night (didn't get a chance to pull the chassis and see if the one 12AX7 that's pushed deeper than the rest has a damaged PC board behind it - maybe tonight). Now the amp is definitely louder, and it sounds pretty good, but it still produces much more background noise than either of my Thunder 1s or the Thunderbass. There is a reverb "effect", but it doesn't seem at all clean, more like an echo chamber than a true reverb.

I can't tell you folks how much I appreciate all this expertise and offers of assistance. I'll keep poking a bit, and once the Paypal issues are resolved I'll look to the collective wisdom here to help me choose the next steps on the path.
 

capnjuan

Gone But Not Forgotten
Gone But Not Forgotten
Joined
Nov 29, 2006
Messages
12,952
Reaction score
4
Location
FL
Don't know about the reverb but first chance you get you ought to see about some replacement speakers.

I pulled the original CTS speakers and replaced with 12" Celestion 30W Greenback and 8" Celestion G8L...at least your grunge will sound better until the cavalry arrives...


regards,
 

john_kidder

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
3,103
Reaction score
6
Location
Ashcroft, BC, Canada
capnjuan said:
you ought to see about some replacement speakers.
I replaced with 12" Celestion 30W Greenback and 8" Celestion G8L

Thanks Cap'n. I'm sure I'll get to the speakers early in this process, assuming the process starts at all.

The 8" is an (original?)CTS, the 12" a no-name replacement. I'll see what my buddies at Vancouver Audio Speaker Clinic might have lying about. Anybody out there have a couple of good spares?
 

capnjuan

Gone But Not Forgotten
Gone But Not Forgotten
Joined
Nov 29, 2006
Messages
12,952
Reaction score
4
Location
FL
I can help with the 8" speaker;


I have a vintage 8" jensen alnico, forget the model, 'Concert'? Cone / surround / magnet / paint in good to VG condition. I'll look tonight.


I just threw out a 12" alnico magnavox that distorted when the amp was turned on...cone as soft as kleenex...
 

sfIII

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2005
Messages
386
Reaction score
0
Location
Jamestown, KY
Guild Total
59
Mike & John

My cab is the Beige colored, 1 12" and 1 8" speaker type. It is 24" long inside the cabinet. Was at one time S/N 4592. and the label says Jensen Speaker!

This cab is not perfect. Some stains and a few loose screws (well many of us on LTG have loose screws). But the wood isn't falling apart like Johns.

If this helps. Let me know.

Howard
 

capnjuan

Gone But Not Forgotten
Gone But Not Forgotten
Joined
Nov 29, 2006
Messages
12,952
Reaction score
4
Location
FL
You Da Man Howard !

If your offer includes the speakers, it's genorous indeed. Unless someone else expresses an interest, I'll hang on to mine.

John K, having been victimized by a hose job, was going to get the 'Red Cross Special' pricing...I was going to say 'FEMA' pricing but decided against it.

It might not have mattered; since il est Canadien, John K might not know about the FEMA stigma. After all, if it was a FEMA deal, he'd get the speaker on cheap, long-term credit terms, it would short out, toast his output transformer, but he'd be stuck with the debt...
 
Top