Why is Fender so reprehensible?

Siwash

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I'm no Fender fan, but I'm not up to date on why many people dislike the company. All I know is that they're big in electric guitars, and their acoustics haven't been much to fuss over. What's the history here?
 

Siwash

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I'm no Fender fan, but I'm not up to date on why many people dislike the company. All I know is that they're big in electric guitars, and their acoustics haven't been much to fuss over. What's the history here?
 

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I am not sure why so many of our members have such bad feelings about Fender controlling Guild. However, from my point of view, Fender acoustics have always been CRAP. They used to have one with a head like a big Stratocaster head with a thing inside called a "tone bar", it was structurally sound, but it sounded like .........can't say that I guess.

However, they brought Westerly people to Carona to help with start up. Now that they have moved production to Tacoma it appears to me they are trying to head this boat in the right direction, so I have a good feeling about it a the moment.
 

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I am not sure why so many of our members have such bad feelings about Fender controlling Guild. However, from my point of view, Fender acoustics have always been CRAP. They used to have one with a head like a big Stratocaster head with a thing inside called a "tone bar", it was structurally sound, but it sounded like .........can't say that I guess.

However, they brought Westerly people to Carona to help with start up. Now that they have moved production to Tacoma it appears to me they are trying to head this boat in the right direction, so I have a good feeling about it a the moment.
 

Guildmark

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The conventional wisdom is that Fender sold out to CBS and qualilty and image of the product suffered ever after. I believe there is a concern that quality could suffer with Guild the same way. Fender has been absorbing a lot of brands and one wonders how much they can maintain or improve on quality if they start mingling corporate sources, resources, production methods, etc. From what I'm reading in this forum, and what I know of the Corona-built Guilds, there may not be too much to worry about.

But here's another thought: Take a look at prices of pre-CBS Fender products. If they are in reasonable condition they command collector-type prices...usually very high! If the same effect happens with Guild, then pre-Corona, and even Pre-Tacoma Guilds will only appreciate in value faster. Some folks might like that. To others who have no intention of ever parting with their Westerly and Hoboken axes, it won't make any difference at all, except maybe in their insurance premiums.

Dang, I need a break. My geezer brain hasn't put together a thought this extensive in weeks.

Guildmark
 

Guildmark

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The conventional wisdom is that Fender sold out to CBS and qualilty and image of the product suffered ever after. I believe there is a concern that quality could suffer with Guild the same way. Fender has been absorbing a lot of brands and one wonders how much they can maintain or improve on quality if they start mingling corporate sources, resources, production methods, etc. From what I'm reading in this forum, and what I know of the Corona-built Guilds, there may not be too much to worry about.

But here's another thought: Take a look at prices of pre-CBS Fender products. If they are in reasonable condition they command collector-type prices...usually very high! If the same effect happens with Guild, then pre-Corona, and even Pre-Tacoma Guilds will only appreciate in value faster. Some folks might like that. To others who have no intention of ever parting with their Westerly and Hoboken axes, it won't make any difference at all, except maybe in their insurance premiums.

Dang, I need a break. My geezer brain hasn't put together a thought this extensive in weeks.

Guildmark
 

Squawk

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I'm generally neutral on all corporate matters, but one issue for me (and I would guess others here) is that Fender changed direction on Guild since it's takeover. Specifically, they committed to continuing these fine guitars, etc. - but after a few years, there's no more Bluesbirds, Starfires, or most archtops (X150, X160, X180 - even X500 is no more - only custom X700 and Johnny smith Award remain). On the plus side, the acoustic line has expanded with production moving to Tacoma - even if some of us don't include the Chinese-made GAD line.

And I would think even Fender considers its own branded acoustics as a means to spread the Fender name rather than be a serious competitor in the acoustic arena (as they are in the solidbody electric arena). Which is why I would venture their higher-end imports are called GADs and not FADs.
 

Squawk

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I'm generally neutral on all corporate matters, but one issue for me (and I would guess others here) is that Fender changed direction on Guild since it's takeover. Specifically, they committed to continuing these fine guitars, etc. - but after a few years, there's no more Bluesbirds, Starfires, or most archtops (X150, X160, X180 - even X500 is no more - only custom X700 and Johnny smith Award remain). On the plus side, the acoustic line has expanded with production moving to Tacoma - even if some of us don't include the Chinese-made GAD line.

And I would think even Fender considers its own branded acoustics as a means to spread the Fender name rather than be a serious competitor in the acoustic arena (as they are in the solidbody electric arena). Which is why I would venture their higher-end imports are called GADs and not FADs.
 

dklsplace

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Perhaps expanding a bit on Guildmark's CBS remarks....most members here have been around the block a time or two & (as evident in some of the GAD threads) fondly remember the way things were. They were good, & not too complicated.

The attitude with Fender is, IMHO, along the lines of having to deal with "The Man." The company has become huge & it's business practices haven't exactly honored, reflected, or resembled it's roots as a garage start-up business. When Mr. Fender himself parted ways with the company bearing his name & began G&L Guitars, many eyebrows did the Mr. Spock thing. :? Interesting to note the pre CBS Fender prices. Also interesting to note the prices that G&L gear command compared to current Fender gear of similar design.
 

dklsplace

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Perhaps expanding a bit on Guildmark's CBS remarks....most members here have been around the block a time or two & (as evident in some of the GAD threads) fondly remember the way things were. They were good, & not too complicated.

The attitude with Fender is, IMHO, along the lines of having to deal with "The Man." The company has become huge & it's business practices haven't exactly honored, reflected, or resembled it's roots as a garage start-up business. When Mr. Fender himself parted ways with the company bearing his name & began G&L Guitars, many eyebrows did the Mr. Spock thing. :? Interesting to note the pre CBS Fender prices. Also interesting to note the prices that G&L gear command compared to current Fender gear of similar design.
 

Squawk

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Regarding Guildmark's comments, I agree - and, as he states regarding Corona Guilds (and I would add Westerly under Fender ownership and hopefully Tacoma), there is a majority agreement that there was no degradation in quality. Not so for the CBS takeover of Fender. Once high quality Fender parts were depleted, they were replaced with inferior parts, etc. - same scenario when Baldwin bought Gretsch (ironic how Fender now owns Gretsch & Gibson owns Baldwin).

Sure, Fender will seek to maximize its ROI on the Guild name - but I think they realize they can't compromise the quality. Perhaps this is why we don't see Guild electrics under $4,000 or so - why should they compete with their own Gretsch line (which is made in Japan)? Maybe things would be different if Brian Setzer and some others played Guild archtops....
 

Squawk

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Regarding Guildmark's comments, I agree - and, as he states regarding Corona Guilds (and I would add Westerly under Fender ownership and hopefully Tacoma), there is a majority agreement that there was no degradation in quality. Not so for the CBS takeover of Fender. Once high quality Fender parts were depleted, they were replaced with inferior parts, etc. - same scenario when Baldwin bought Gretsch (ironic how Fender now owns Gretsch & Gibson owns Baldwin).

Sure, Fender will seek to maximize its ROI on the Guild name - but I think they realize they can't compromise the quality. Perhaps this is why we don't see Guild electrics under $4,000 or so - why should they compete with their own Gretsch line (which is made in Japan)? Maybe things would be different if Brian Setzer and some others played Guild archtops....
 

coastie99

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My two cents worth.

Firstly, I should declare an attitude: I loathe "Corporations" and "The Corporate Way". Here in N.Z. it's hard to purchase living necessities without having your money going to the corporation.
It's very much the Kiwi way to support the underdog, partially I guess because being so tiny, we're an underdog ourselves. Personally, I have a fierce sense of support for the little guy, hence, in part, my love of Guilds.
I should also confess to a smug sense of satisfaction in owning underdog stuff that's the equal of, and often better than, the hyped-up and often seriously over-priced offerings from "The Man".

For me, the real Guild is over, finished !
Guilds were lovingly made in "little" factories by caring artisans. They didn't put shoddy crap out onto the market like the big guys did, and do.
I have no knowledge about current Guild quality issues; by all accounts the new Chinese and Tacoma guitars are a very nicely-made product.
But they're "Guilds" by somebody else.

It was suggested somewhere here (I think), that in an ideal world the name would be taken over by a group of artisans, and a top-quality, limited production line would be produced. Now, that would be nice, and appeals to the romantic in me.

But, in that very unlikely event occurring. I think still, (but I'm a little equivocal) that "Guild", the real thing, is dead.
 

coastie99

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My two cents worth.

Firstly, I should declare an attitude: I loathe "Corporations" and "The Corporate Way". Here in N.Z. it's hard to purchase living necessities without having your money going to the corporation.
It's very much the Kiwi way to support the underdog, partially I guess because being so tiny, we're an underdog ourselves. Personally, I have a fierce sense of support for the little guy, hence, in part, my love of Guilds.
I should also confess to a smug sense of satisfaction in owning underdog stuff that's the equal of, and often better than, the hyped-up and often seriously over-priced offerings from "The Man".

For me, the real Guild is over, finished !
Guilds were lovingly made in "little" factories by caring artisans. They didn't put shoddy crap out onto the market like the big guys did, and do.
I have no knowledge about current Guild quality issues; by all accounts the new Chinese and Tacoma guitars are a very nicely-made product.
But they're "Guilds" by somebody else.

It was suggested somewhere here (I think), that in an ideal world the name would be taken over by a group of artisans, and a top-quality, limited production line would be produced. Now, that would be nice, and appeals to the romantic in me.

But, in that very unlikely event occurring. I think still, (but I'm a little equivocal) that "Guild", the real thing, is dead.
 

dreadnut

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here in Kalamazoo, Michigan, the old Gibson artisans started a new company called "Heritage Guitars" after Gibson pulled up stakes and moved.

Based on the Gibsons I've seen the last few years, buy a Heritage! They're a little less money and a lot more guitar. If Guild, I mean Fender, doesn't start producing electrics again I'll probably buy a Heritage.
 

dreadnut

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here in Kalamazoo, Michigan, the old Gibson artisans started a new company called "Heritage Guitars" after Gibson pulled up stakes and moved.

Based on the Gibsons I've seen the last few years, buy a Heritage! They're a little less money and a lot more guitar. If Guild, I mean Fender, doesn't start producing electrics again I'll probably buy a Heritage.
 

West R Lee

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I think this about sums it up for me. Page 18 of Hans' book, bottom of the middle of the page, last paragraph:

Jim Deurloo: "Alfred Dronge was a very nice guy. He was also very thorough and when he would visit the plant, which was a couple of times a month, he would be very intense. If a problem had to be solved and it wasn't solved by the end of the day, you'd better not leave. He would stay until it was fixed and so would everybody elso who was involved. He cared about the guitars and the people who were making them. Especially the key people, who stayed with him for the longest time. Al had the greatest respect for them and treated them like they were family. He liked to have fun when it was time to have fun, but he cared for the company like it was still his own."

Now having quoted that, let me say that I've never been to a Fender plant, Westerly either for that matter. But I have a really hard time trying to imagine that attitude coming from the Fender upper echelon, and I think the lack of that attitude shows. But it's not just Fender, as Coastie pointed out, it's big business everywhere. We just happen to be passionate about Guild guitars.

West
 

West R Lee

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I think this about sums it up for me. Page 18 of Hans' book, bottom of the middle of the page, last paragraph:

Jim Deurloo: "Alfred Dronge was a very nice guy. He was also very thorough and when he would visit the plant, which was a couple of times a month, he would be very intense. If a problem had to be solved and it wasn't solved by the end of the day, you'd better not leave. He would stay until it was fixed and so would everybody elso who was involved. He cared about the guitars and the people who were making them. Especially the key people, who stayed with him for the longest time. Al had the greatest respect for them and treated them like they were family. He liked to have fun when it was time to have fun, but he cared for the company like it was still his own."

Now having quoted that, let me say that I've never been to a Fender plant, Westerly either for that matter. But I have a really hard time trying to imagine that attitude coming from the Fender upper echelon, and I think the lack of that attitude shows. But it's not just Fender, as Coastie pointed out, it's big business everywhere. We just happen to be passionate about Guild guitars.

West
 

Mr. P ~

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West R Lee said:
But it's not just Fender, as Coastie pointed out, it's big business everywhere. We just happen to be passionate about Guild guitars.

West

I agree with that statment completely. I work for the Boeing Company. At 300,000 employees, just try to catch the attention of the top dawg!!

In fact I have a hard enough time keeping up with who claims to be in charge.


Big Business has no heart, and it has no soul!!
 

Mr. P ~

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West R Lee said:
But it's not just Fender, as Coastie pointed out, it's big business everywhere. We just happen to be passionate about Guild guitars.

West

I agree with that statment completely. I work for the Boeing Company. At 300,000 employees, just try to catch the attention of the top dawg!!

In fact I have a hard enough time keeping up with who claims to be in charge.


Big Business has no heart, and it has no soul!!
 
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